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  • #76
    Originally posted by 135dB View Post
    Thanks again for the info and personalizing it to individual questions too. I have a few accessory questions for you
    1. Is there any AR set ups that are rifle/pistol caliber interchangable, like switching the upper in between 9mm and .223 (reliably)
    I know nothing other than the fact that it exists, but MGI makes a lower receiver that has swappable magazine wells so you can supposedly switch between calibers.

    Comment


    • #77
      Hey Jwise

      Thanks for the great thread!

      I'd like to know your opinion (other opinions are welcome as well!) on the 9mm AR-15. Would it be worth buying one of those or would it be better to stick with the 5.56?

      Your work and effort into this thread is most grateful for those of us who hardly know anything about them. Thanks!!

      --lt
      Last edited by lt1z28; 02-19-2008, 07:44 PM. Reason: added comments

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by lt1z28 View Post
        Hey Jwise

        Thanks for the great thread!

        I'd like to know your opinion (other opinions are welcome as well!) on the 9mm AR-15. Would it be worth buying one of those or would it be better to stick with the 5.56?

        Your work and effort into this thread is most grateful for those of us who hardly know anything about them. Thanks!!

        --lt
        Well, others are welcomed, so I'm going to give you my opinion....

        If you're going to buy an AR, get it in 5.56mm. If you've already purchased an AR and want something that is "cheap" to plink with, get a 9mm 'AR'.

        I wouldn't use an assault rifle for "work" in anything but a rifle caliber.
        “The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed."

        "You go for a man hard enough and fast enough, he don't have time to think about how many's with him; he thinks about himself, and how he might get clear of that wrath that's about to set down on him."

        Comment


        • #79
          Ahh, the 9mm AR. Or for that matter, the "pistol caliber rifle." Let's look at the concept in general, then we'll look at the AR specifically.

          The idea of chambering a rifle with a pistol caliber has two originations, and a further advantage. The first reason to do so is to allow ammunition (magazine?) compatibility with your sidearm. Ruger did this, and Kel-Tec has done it as well (others, too.)

          The second reason, and the primary reason at first, was to give the user a more stable platform to engage the target while keeping the recoil low. This was the driving force behind the adent of the subgun, of which the UZI and H&K MP5 are notorious. They have shoulder stocks, high-capacity magazines, and give the shooter a platform much more controllable on full-auto than a pistol. They kept the compactness and short barrel of a pistol, and simply added weight, a stock, and a stick mag.

          While the concept of a subgun is sound (full-auto, short-barreled pistol caliber shoulder-fired weapon), when you add a 16" barrel and make it semi-auto only, the benefits disappear and you (should) start wondering why you're lugging around a rifle sized firearm that is chambered in such a weak (comparatively) round. A 5.56 would be a MUCH better firearm to be toting, than a 9mm if you are looking for terminal ballistics (killing stuff.)

          Now, let's look at it in the AR platform. The rifle ends up being very long, and due to the stock design you can't even make it a folder. The 9mm rifle is relegated to a "toy", or as a range specific firearm for those ranges which don't allow rifles in the pistol bays, but allow pistol caliber rifles. This would be useful.

          The other concept is as a 'training' conversion. 9mm is cheaper, and recoils less, right? Nope. It's not THAT cheap, and it recoils the same, since the uppers turn it into a blowback operated firearm. But you still might like the idea of a lower cost alternative to the pricier 5.56. You might think, "hey, I can have both with a siimple magwell conversion piece!" Sure you can, but it'll end up costing around $1k for that "conversion" after it's all said and done.

          In contrast, you can get a Ciener kit that converts an AR into a .22lr for only $150, and .22lr is a LOT cheaper (and it's a "pistol caliber" for those ranges.)

          So- the only way I get excited about a pistol caliber rifle, is when it's a subgun. The only exception is when it's suppressed. 5.56 suppressed sounds like a .22lr. Pretty loud. However, suppressed 9mm sounds pretty quiet. If your design is to register the receiver as a SBR and put a 8-9" barrel on it, then put a 9mm suppressor on the end, then yeah, I like it!!
          J. Wise

          AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

          "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

          Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

          sigpic

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          • #80
            "In contrast, you can get a Ciener kit that converts an AR into a .22lr for only $150, and .22lr is a LOT cheaper (and it's a "pistol caliber" for those ranges.)"


            Thats Something else I considered. I noticed with my friends, who has a DMPS .22lr upper with an Aimpoint, that the trajectory is about the same as a .223 up to a certain point. Is the Ciener kit worth it or would u be better off spending another few hundred $$$ and get a dedicated .22lr upper (not that I'm rich, just curious)
            -"He detested failure more than anything else, even betrayal. Betrayal required intelligence and ruthlessness, failure only stupidity or lack of concentration."
            -Daniel Silva

            Comment


            • #81
              My Ciener kit works perfectly, but is not a match rifle. If you want to work on your shooting skills, positions, and other skills related to using a fighting rifle, the kit is GREAT! If you want to work on your accuracy from the prone position, get a dedicated .22lr upper in 1/12 twist.
              Last edited by jwise; 02-19-2008, 10:00 PM.
              J. Wise

              AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

              "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

              Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

              sigpic

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by jwise View Post
                I've seen it done, but only recently. I think the manufacturer had to open up the gas port in order to get it to function correctly.

                So it IS possible.
                DPMS has made a 16" barreled full length sight radius with rifle length gas tube version for a long time that they call the "Tactical-16". Colt did it in the 605 series. When we make them I much prefer a CAR length gas tube as I find them less finicky when it comes overall weapon timing. Someday we might make them in a mid-length once the mid-length gets standardized for parts availability, as we don't want to make a rifle that we cannot support several years down the road. We have done lots of 20" cutdown conversions over the years for agencies, and find that we usually have to open up the gas port to get them to run reliably, and many of them get fussy down the road after they get some higher round counts through them.

                I would not recommend Titanium Nitride Coated (TIN Coat) firing pins or other parts. We don't see any real advantage to these, I have several firing pins in our bad parts box that we show off at armoring courses of which are showing excessive wear.

                Pistol calibers are fine, we first issued pistol caliber carbines around 1993 and still have some in service. I know of many agencies that still use them in the field for patrol and tactical applications. We still occasionally use MP5's for doorkicking. We are actually starting to see a movement back to pistol calibers for training purposes due to the cost of ammo. Given the choice I would opt for a rifle caliber carbine, but I do not feel inferior with a pistol caliber one. The .22lr conversions and dedicated uppers are great for training puposes if you can get them to run reliably, there are some great magazines (BlackDog I think) that work well with the Ceiner kits.

                CY6
                Greg Sullivan "Sully"
                http://www.SLR15.com
                http://www.TheDefensiveEdge.com

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by jwise View Post
                  My Ciener kit works perfectly, but is not a match rifle. If you want to work on your shooting skills, positions, and other skills related to using a fighting rifle, the kit is GREAT! If you want to work on your accuracy from the prone position, get a dedicated .22lr upper in 1/12 twist.
                  But, would I be wrong to assume that shooting thousands cheap of practice .22lr rounds using that kit still run down the barrel off the .223 upper?
                  -"He detested failure more than anything else, even betrayal. Betrayal required intelligence and ruthlessness, failure only stupidity or lack of concentration."
                  -Daniel Silva

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by 135dB
                    But, would I be wrong to assume that shooting thousands cheap of practice .22lr rounds using that kit still run down the barrel off the .223 upper?

                    Copper washed lead wearing down chrome? I don't think so! You'll have to clean your barrel more, as you'll get lead build-up in the grooves, but that's not a big deal.
                    J. Wise

                    AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                    "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                    Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by jwise View Post
                      Copper washed lead wearing down chrome? I don't think so! You'll have to clean your barrel more, as you'll get lead build-up in the grooves, but that's not a big deal.
                      Just makin sure, thanks. So I think you sold me on a CMMG within the next 2 monthes, (I have to roll my pennies, collect cans and have a bake sale for some $$$) I'm not an LEO so I have to talk to the local shops to see how to go about getting a transfer. Thanks again for letting us pick your brain.
                      -"He detested failure more than anything else, even betrayal. Betrayal required intelligence and ruthlessness, failure only stupidity or lack of concentration."
                      -Daniel Silva

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by SLR15 View Post
                        DPMS has made a 16" barreled full length sight radius with rifle length gas tube version for a long time that they call the "Tactical-16". Colt did it in the 605 series.
                        I must admit I have never seen a Colt in that configuration, and I most likely assumed the DPMS was a CAR gas system under the handguards. Thanks for the info.

                        Originally posted by SLR15 View Post
                        When we make them I much prefer a CAR length gas tube as I find them less finicky when it comes overall weapon timing. Someday we might make them in a mid-length once the mid-length gets standardized for parts availability, as we don't want to make a rifle that we cannot support several years down the road. We have done lots of 20" cutdown conversions over the years for agencies, and find that we usually have to open up the gas port to get them to run reliably, and many of them get fussy down the road after they get some higher round counts through them.
                        THIS is consistent with the info that I have gotten in the past. You can do it, but it will not run well. Thanks for throwing in your weight on the issue.

                        Like I said, until I see these rifles in larger numbers and working as advertised over the long-haul, I'm not spending MY money on one. Not when midlengths accomplish (nearly) the same thing in a more reliable package.

                        Originally posted by SLR15 View Post
                        I would not recommend Titanium Nitride Coated (TIN Coat) firing pins or other parts. We don't see any real advantage to these, I have several firing pins in our bad parts box that we show off at armoring courses of which are showing excessive wear.

                        Pistol calibers are fine, we first issued pistol caliber carbines around 1993 and still have some in service. I know of many agencies that still use them in the field for patrol and tactical applications. We still occasionally use MP5's for doorkicking. We are actually starting to see a movement back to pistol calibers for training purposes due to the cost of ammo. Given the choice I would opt for a rifle caliber carbine, but I do not feel inferior with a pistol caliber one. The .22lr conversions and dedicated uppers are great for training puposes if you can get them to run reliably, there are some great magazines (BlackDog I think) that work well with the Ceiner kits.

                        CY6
                        Greg Sullivan "Sully"
                        http://www.SLR15.com
                        http://www.TheDefensiveEdge.com
                        Sully-- you say you wouldn't feel "inferior" with a pistol caliber rifle, but are you referring to a SMG or a semi-auto, 16" barrel 9mm upper? I tried to make a distinction between the two, keeping my criticism strictly to the SA, 16" 9mm, un-suppressed upper.
                        J. Wise

                        AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                        "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                        Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

                        sigpic

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by 135dB View Post
                          Just makin sure, thanks. So I think you sold me on a CMMG within the next 2 monthes, (I have to roll my pennies, collect cans and have a bake sale for some $$$) I'm not an LEO so I have to talk to the local shops to see how to go about getting a transfer. Thanks again for letting us pick your brain.
                          If you have local gunshows that sell complete lowers, you might want to just order an upper online (have it shipped to your house), then pick up a lower at the next show. This only applies if you're having trouble getting a dealer to transfer in a lower for you.
                          J. Wise

                          AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                          "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                          Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

                          sigpic

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Here's my Ciener kit installed in one of my ARs:

                            J. Wise

                            AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                            "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                            Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

                            sigpic

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by jwise View Post
                              Here's my Ciener kit installed in one of my ARs:

                              BLASPHEMY!!!
                              “The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed."

                              "You go for a man hard enough and fast enough, he don't have time to think about how many's with him; he thinks about himself, and how he might get clear of that wrath that's about to set down on him."

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Are there conversion kits for an M4 to make it more like an H&K 416? By that I mean, putting in a piston system instead of using ejecting gas to push the bolt back.
                                "Friendly Fire, isn't"

                                Comment

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