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  • Originally posted by toasterlocker View Post
    So I have a question about buying a completely stripped lower. Does it make much of a difference what you get? When I asked about DPMS a few pages back, I noticed none of the negatives mentioned were lower related. Would it be safe to buy a "cheap" lower if I'm planning on building from the ground up? (The reading I've done through google searches and other sources seem to imply this, but I want to hear from the experts )
    FWIW, at the CMMG tables at the show here last weekend, all of their stock was built on DMPS lowers with CMMG internals. Everyone is having trouble getting parts. Of course, since their forged lowers are from the same manufacturer, the real difference is just the name stamped on the side. To be honest, I'm not sure how many of the parts CMMG actually makes on their own. Perhaps jwise has a better idea on that one.

    Right now CMMG (like pretty much everyone else) is cranking out everything they can manage. This past weekend they ran two shows at once, one in Bridgeton and one in Columbia, MO. In Bridgeton they sold out and closed up shop by Saturday afternoon.

    Comment


    • Since it's a Hesse, save yourself some time and just buy a complete lower parts kit. No telling what else will fail on that thing.
      "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
      8541tactical.com - Ammo Wallets

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      • I saw TASC with the description of a RRA AR15. What does TASC stand for?
        sigpic

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        'Do we really need 'smart bombs' to drop on these dumb bastards?'

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        • I don't know, but it's just their model name designator for this rifle:



          Seems pretty stupid, if you ask me. It's an A2 upper, with a gooseneck mount putting an EOTech out over a RAILED HANDGUARD? Why not just attach the thing to the handguard!? If the Surefire M85 handguard isn't good enough to mount an optic on, the price of the Midwest Industries gooseneck mount could have been added to the price of the rail to get one that could.

          Seems silly to me....
          J. Wise

          AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

          "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

          Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

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          • Nevermind...
            Last edited by toasterlocker; 12-04-2008, 08:42 AM. Reason: change of plans

            Comment


            • I really like the look of your LWRC Shorty on the first page. What type of handguard is that?

              I'd like to build a CMMG and try to get the look of your LWRC including the FDE components. How would "you" build it?

              It will primarily be used for home defense but from time to time will get the nod for some varmint hunting...coyotes etc.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by jwise View Post
                I don't know, but it's just their model name designator for this rifle:



                Seems pretty stupid, if you ask me. It's an A2 upper, with a gooseneck mount putting an EOTech out over a RAILED HANDGUARD? Why not just attach the thing to the handguard!? If the Surefire M85 handguard isn't good enough to mount an optic on, the price of the Midwest Industries gooseneck mount could have been added to the price of the rail to get one that could.

                Seems silly to me....
                Not silly to me at all. Most handguards are not as stable as a properly mounted scout mount.

                Mounting a light assembly or other accessories on a handguard is fine, but I'd prefer my optic to be mounted to something that won't move relative to my barrel.

                I know you're the AR expert on this forum, but I stand by my opinion.
                Politically Correct? No.

                Truthful? Yes!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Woofdog View Post
                  I know you're the AR expert on this forum, but I stand by my opinion.
                  More like an AR dork...

                  I appreciate your viewpoint. You are right, in that the upper receiver is far more sturdy than the handguards. However, the optic is attached to a mount that sticks out in front of the carry handle and above the handguards. I don't know how sturdy that mount is compared to an installed free-float handguard.

                  Either way, do what you are comfortable with, as that is all that matters.

                  I still think it's a silly (and heavy) configuration...
                  J. Wise

                  AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                  "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                  Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

                  sigpic

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                  • I want to thank you again for the excellent thread, which has helped make me an educated consumer. I have a couple of questions that I didn't see the answers to in the thread (I've only been reading it for a week during down time at work).

                    Topic #1

                    Can you discuss EGRESS, LMT Enhanced Bolts w/standard carriers, and LMT Enhanced Bolt & Carrier. I understand the benefit of the heavier FA carrier, but am not clear on the other BCG upgrades.

                    CMMG has the EGRESS at +$30 and the two LMT options at +$125 & +$189.

                    I see a reliability benefit from my reading about the EGRESS upgrade, but what are the benefits of the LMT upgrades that justify the price increase?

                    Topic #2

                    Can you discuss the purpose and benefits of the various buffers. I understand that the different buffers are weighted different, with the H2 being heavier than the H-Buffer. CMMG has a Tungsten Buffer for +$60.

                    Topic #3

                    Is the broad price difference on free-float railed handguards indicative of anything other than brand. Rock River has quad-rail free-float hand guards for +$125 and Daniel Defense 9.0 for +$315. What justifies a nearly $200 difference in pricepoint? I know you previously discussed Troy 2-piece rails, can you also discuss other brands to choose/avoid for railed free-float handguards?

                    Thanks for the help and thanks again for the excellent discussion.

                    FYI: My intent is to purchase a true 16-inch barrel with a mid-length gas system.
                    "A fanatic is one who won't change his mind, and won't change the subject." -Winston Churchill

                    "I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts." -Will Rogers

                    "To desire to save these wolves in society may arise from benevolence, but it must be the benevolence of a child or a fool" -Henry Fielding

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Bighead View Post
                      I want to thank you again for the excellent thread, which has helped make me an educated consumer. I have a couple of questions that I didn't see the answers to in the thread (I've only been reading it for a week during down time at work).
                      Thank you. I'm glad it has helped.

                      Topic #1

                      Can you discuss EGRESS, LMT Enhanced Bolts w/standard carriers, and LMT Enhanced Bolt & Carrier. I understand the benefit of the heavier FA carrier, but am not clear on the other BCG upgrades.

                      CMMG has the EGRESS at +$30 and the two LMT options at +$125 & +$189.

                      I see a reliability benefit from my reading about the EGRESS upgrade, but what are the benefits of the LMT upgrades that justify the price increase?
                      This is an exploded view of the E.G.R.E.S.S. kit:



                      You'll notice it's a five-piece kit. Let's look at what you get for $30 :
                      1) One-piece gas ring: Useless in my opinion. I've never worn out the standard 3 gas ring system that comes standard. Some may disagree, and that's fine. But I've never heard a competent gunsmith say, "put a one-piece gas ring in there and it'll run fine."

                      2) Chrome-Silicon ejector spring: The small parts and especially springs are affected by the high temperatures of the gas being blown back into the action. These parts wear, and break. Chrome silicon has two advantages, (1) lasts longer under normal use, and (2) is not affected by the heat as much (better corrosion resistance.)

                      3) E-Ring: This is the same thing a a D-Fender Ring which sells for about $10, but you can get the same result by using a #60 O-ring. The #60 is a standard size, and you can purchase a pack of 10 from Home Depot for a little over a $1.

                      4) Chrome-Silicon extractor spring: Chrome-Silicon wears slower and is more resistant to corrosion, but it does not say if it is an extra power spring.

                      5) Black insert: I have never found any evidence anywhere that says the black insert DOES anything. I have found lots of evidence that indicates the insert's color is only indicative of the type of spring used. I don't think this is a feature at all, but I could be wrong.

                      So- what are you getting? A $1 O-ring and longer lasting springs. Is it worth $30? No. Is it worth getting if you have no intentions of going to HD, buying a pack of O-rings, disassembling the bolt from the carrier, punching out the extractor retaining pin, and placing the O-ring over the extractor spring? Yes. The O-ring is VERY important, and so if you have no intentions of doing it yourself, I think it is worth it. You'll just get the other "features" bundled with it.

                      I have no experience with either the LMT enhanced bolt, nor bolt carrier. However, I know of SOME people who have bought these items and experienced problems in their carbines because of them. Most were users running very short-barreled rifles (10" or so). I know LWRC has had problems with their enhanced bolt as well. I don't know the current status with their ACB, but it had some teething issues at the least.

                      I'm a big fan of the standard bolt, as long as it has an O-ring over the extractor spring. That O-ring adds the power that the extractor needs for reliable extraction. The "sand cuts" and other features of the LMT products may be useful for some, but I would not whole-heartedly endorse anything that I do not even own, much less see the need for.

                      But, it's your money. You might feel differently. There are a lot of folks who own them and have not experienced any issues with their rifles.


                      Topic #2

                      Can you discuss the purpose and benefits of the various buffers. I understand that the different buffers are weighted different, with the H2 being heavier than the H-Buffer. CMMG has a Tungsten Buffer for +$60.
                      The buffers are weighted differently to enhance reliability for different gas systems. The heavier the buffer, the longer the bolt will remain locked into the chamber before extraction. The longer the bolt is in the chamber, the less pressure will be IN the chamber when it extracts. The less pressure in the chamber, the easier it is to extract. The easier it is to extract a spent casing, the more reliable the extraction process.

                      Topic #3

                      Is the broad price difference on free-float railed handguards indicative of anything other than brand. Rock River has quad-rail free-float hand guards for +$125 and Daniel Defense 9.0 for +$315. What justifies a nearly $200 difference in pricepoint? I know you previously discussed Troy 2-piece rails, can you also discuss other brands to choose/avoid for railed free-float handguards?
                      To a large degree, you get what you pay for. To a substantially similar degree, you can pay however much you want. There is a significant diminishing rate of return when it comes to these parts, as most users will not be affected by the difference between the rails.

                      The first issue with a railed handguard is the spec of the rails themselves. Machining tight tolerances is not cheap. You get what you pay for. Some aftermarket accessories fit tighter on some rails than others, because the rails are slightly different sizes. An optic wouldn't matter as much, as it would have a clamp, or screw-down mount, which would mitigate this issue. However, a vertical foregrip that just slips on, or rail panels may wriggle around a bit (which would be annoying!) But, a little tape on the rail under the accessory will fix that issue for cheap.

                      The WEIGHT of the handguard is a factor. You pay for weight reduction, because it takes better engineering to design a strong platform that is lightweight.

                      Features vary from rail to rail, in the form of free-floating the barrel, ease of installation, quick disconnect sling attachment points, removable top/bottom pieces, oval design over square shape, etc...

                      If you spend the money on a LaRue or Daniel Defense railed forearm, you will be getting your money's worth. If you decide to go with a lower priced unit, you will still be getting a good product. Midwest Industries is about the lowest I would ever recommend. Anything lower than that and you get plastic handguards, or something similar.

                      My recommendation has been the Troy, because that's what I have used. It's features are worth paying for, in my opinion. It may not be the right one for you, but only you can determine that.

                      FYI: My intent is to purchase a true 16-inch barrel with a mid-length gas system.
                      Thanks for including your prospective purchase. It makes it easier to answer your questions when I have your purpose in mind. By the way, the midlength DESIGN mitigates the reliability issues (extraction) that plague the carbine gas system. It is these issues with extraction that have made O-rings, extra power springs, and enhanced bolts necessary. With a middy, the standard springs and bolt should work fine.

                      I hope this helps...
                      Last edited by jwise; 12-05-2008, 08:16 AM.
                      J. Wise

                      AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                      "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                      Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

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                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by fish4life View Post
                        I really like the look of your LWRC Shorty on the first page. What type of handguard is that?

                        I'd like to build a CMMG and try to get the look of your LWRC including the FDE components. How would "you" build it?

                        It will primarily be used for home defense but from time to time will get the nod for some varmint hunting...coyotes etc.
                        Picture of rifle from page 1:



                        Thank you! I like it too...

                        The LWRC is fitted with a Grenadier Precision railed handguard. I do not believe GP exists anymore, as LWRC hired the people who owned that company and brought them in-house. So, I think the rail would now just be made by LWRC, but I am not certain of the exact nature of their business organization. It is very similar to the Troy rail, and that was the reason I first went with Troy. The GP rail has a feature to allow the user to remove the top rail, to access the piston components. This isn't necessary for any reason, but folks like to tinker...

                        On the rail are Tango Down rail panels, Tango Down vertical foregrip, a Daniel Defense Offset Light Mount, and a Magpul ladder rail on top. The light is a Night Ops Falcata 9v weaponlight.

                        The pistol grip is a Tango Down Battlegrip, but it has since been replaced with an Ergo grip, as I like it better.

                        The stock is a Magpul CTR, the magazine is a Magpul P-Mag, and the sling is a Spec-Ops Mamba. The backup iron sight is a LaRue, and the optic is an EOTech 512 (spray-painted hood.) The suppressor is an Advanced Armament Corp M4-2000 (mod 07), also referred to simply as M4-2K. The trigger is a Rock River Arms 2-stage Nat'l Match.

                        I would get the CMMG 10.3" flattop upper pictured here:



                        Replace the handguards with a Troy MRF-C, and add the accessories listed above. While the LWRC is a 10.5" instead of a 10.3", I'll bet no one could then tell the difference between the two.

                        Good luck, and get your pocket book ready!
                        Last edited by jwise; 12-05-2008, 08:35 AM.
                        J. Wise

                        AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                        "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                        Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

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                        • Jwise, is that a Blackhawk Falcata 9v or a Gladius on your rifle?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Till View Post
                            Jwise, is that a Blackhawk Falcata 9v or a Gladius on your rifle?
                            It is a Night Ops Falcata (licensed to be marketed by Blackhawk) 9v.
                            J. Wise

                            AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                            "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                            Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

                            sigpic

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by jwise View Post
                              I'm a big fan of the standard bolt, as long as it has an O-ring over the extractor spring. That O-ring adds the power that the extractor needs for reliable extraction. The "sand cuts" and other features of the LMT products may be useful for some, but I would not whole-heartedly endorse anything that I do not even own, much less see the need for.

                              But, it's your money. You might feel differently. There are a lot of folks who own them and have not experienced any issues with their rifles.
                              Thanks, and I don't feel differently. It's kinda like motorcycles with me, if it doesn't make it go faster, stop shorter, or more comfortable then the store can keep it. My goal is a reliable working rifle in the best K.I.S.S. package available. If standard bolts work fine, and gee-wiz add-ons don't solve a problem (and may actually contribute to problems) then I'll save my money.

                              Originally posted by jwise View Post
                              The buffers are weighted differently to enhance reliability for different gas systems. The heavier the buffer, the longer the bolt will remain locked into the chamber before extraction. The longer the bolt is in the chamber, the less pressure will be IN the chamber when it extracts. The less pressure in the chamber, the easier it is to extract. The easier it is to extract a spent casing, the more reliable the extraction process.
                              Just making sure I understand: Shorter barrels/shorter gas systems/higher pressure ammunition benefit from heavier buffers? I also read that heavier buffers reduce felt recoil (right?), but I'm not really concerned about quelling the awesome power of the 5.56

                              That considered, which buffer would you recommend for a 14.5, 14.7, or true 16 inch barrels with a mid-length gas system? For those considering other builds can you address buffers for carbine/rifle length gas systems and different barrel lengths?

                              Originally posted by jwise View Post

                              I hope this helps...
                              It does. This thread has been excellent and helped myself and many others make good decisions based on something other than brand name and looks. Once again, thanks again.
                              Last edited by Bighead; 12-05-2008, 10:04 PM.
                              "A fanatic is one who won't change his mind, and won't change the subject." -Winston Churchill

                              "I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts." -Will Rogers

                              "To desire to save these wolves in society may arise from benevolence, but it must be the benevolence of a child or a fool" -Henry Fielding

                              Comment


                              • Hey jwise, or anyone else who knows:

                                Judging from that other thread, could the full-auto carrier be deemed illegal in the rifle?

                                Comment

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