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  • #46
    Both of my Colt ARs, a LE H-BAR Match model (during the ban) and an older H-BAR Sporter, are marked .223.

    While the 5.56 chamber is looser, 5.56 ammo is a lot harder to find than it used to be. And the quality of milsurp just isn't there.

    If your rifle is chambered for .223, then by all means, use .223. The American Ammo Manufactures Assn. (or something like that) says the two are not interchangable, for whatever that's worth. I've shot both, had no problems.

    Some countries probably don't have the QC of American NATO 5.56. And, anyway, it's getting harder to find.

    I don't worry about ammo that much. We buy it new, in .223, and shoot it through all sorts of ARs. We've never had a problem. I don't know, but I suspect most of them have Wylde chambers. I've shot a bunch thru my M16 A1 with no problems.
    "Say hal-lo to my leetle frahnd!"

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    • #47
      Thanks for the extensive info bro! This needs to be stickied!

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      • #48
        Originally posted by zeplin View Post
        I've been thinking about the staking on the gas keys and you know the 'Proper way' looks good and neat, but I'd just about bet that those that are not 'properly staked' would still hold. Grab your favorite hex wrench and put it to the test. I think it will either round off or snap before you budge that hex screw.

        Guy who works with me had a rifle with a key that was improperly staked, and it did work loose. All that recoil is kinda like an impact wrench, apparently.

        Some red Loctite or something even stronger might work, if it does come loose. That stuff is super strong. I don't know how he fixed his, can't remember.
        "Say hal-lo to my leetle frahnd!"

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Gene L View Post
          Guy who works with me had a rifle with a key that was improperly staked, and it did work loose. All that recoil is kinda like an impact wrench, apparently.

          Some red Loctite or something even stronger might work, if it does come loose. That stuff is super strong. I don't know how he fixed his, can't remember.
          Gene, That goes to show sometimes I don't think long enough before opening my mouth, or in this case posting, cuz I thought about it some more after posting and came to the same conclusion you did about the recoil acting like an impact wrench.

          The red locktite would be good, but you have to be careful that it doesn't get where you don't want it or it can louse things up a bit.

          Just out of curiosity, about how many rounds were fired before it came loose?
          sigpic

          "Po Po coming through!" all rights reserved DJS



          'Do we really need 'smart bombs' to drop on these dumb bastards?'

          http://www.snipercompany.com/

          M16/AR15/M4 Armorer

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          • #50
            I don't know how many rounds he fired, and he's not here so I can ask him.

            Red Loctite responds to heat, and might not be the best for the job. But if you put it on the threads, you shouldn't have any problems with it being where you don't want it to be.

            His is the only case I've know of. I suppose the best answer is to send it back to the factory for a replacement or for them to stake down properly.
            "Say hal-lo to my leetle frahnd!"

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Gene L View Post
              If your rifle is chambered for .223, then by all means, use .223. The American Ammo Manufactures Assn. (or something like that) says the two are not interchangable, for whatever that's worth. I've shot both, had no problems.
              From a Winchester Ammunition press release, back in May 2001:
              The 5.56mm military cartridge fired in a .223 Rem chamber is considered by SAAMI (Small Arm and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) to be an unsafe ammunition combination.
              Maybe they know something about that, since they make the stuff, or maybe their lawyers told them to say that. Maybe the Force and the Law of Averages have been with you.
              --
              Capital Punishment means never having to say "you again?"

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              • #52
                That's what I was talking about. But since the supply of 5.56 is drying up, I can't see it as a viable choice.

                As I said, some of the military stuff from overseas is awful. They do NOT meet SAAMI specs, I'm sure. Shot in a match chamber, I can see trouble. Shot in a Wylde chamber, ....well, I don't know.

                SAAMI is notoriously conservative to cover their asses. Theirs, of course, is the "Lawyer's Advice" way to go. Personally, I haven't heard any reports of rifles blowing up, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

                Some time, compare 7x57 SAAMI ammo with Norma 7x57 ammo. Or, 8mm for that matter, and 6.5 Sweedish.

                These rounds are loaded WAY below their potential because of the huge amount of surplus rifles we have around...92 Mausers, Rolling Blocks in 7 x 57, and rifles 6.5 Swedes over 100 years old are common.

                I don't blame them, SAAAMI, and some 5.56 is no doubt a travesty. I wouldn't fire the green-tip stuff at all. I think the same holds true with both NATO rounds, the 7.62 as well as the 5.56. I don't know if they publish warnings, but I've read about some dicey 7.62 fired from .308s.

                A lot of European 7.62s semi-autos had adjustable gas chambers/ports on them to account for the different pressures.
                "Say hal-lo to my leetle frahnd!"

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Gene L View Post
                  Both of my Colt ARs, a LE H-BAR Match model (during the ban) and an older H-BAR Sporter, are marked .223.

                  While the 5.56 chamber is looser, 5.56 ammo is a lot harder to find than it used to be. And the quality of milsurp just isn't there.

                  If your rifle is chambered for .223, then by all means, use .223. The American Ammo Manufactures Assn. (or something like that) says the two are not interchangable, for whatever that's worth. I've shot both, had no problems.

                  Some countries probably don't have the QC of American NATO 5.56. And, anyway, it's getting harder to find.

                  I don't worry about ammo that much. We buy it new, in .223, and shoot it through all sorts of ARs. We've never had a problem. I don't know, but I suspect most of them have Wylde chambers. I've shot a bunch thru my M16 A1 with no problems.

                  There was an article in American Rifleman a while back on this subject. If you have a rifle chamber for 5.56 you can safely shoot .223 in it. If it's chambered for .223, don't shoot the 5.56 because it will create excessive pressures.
                  sigpic

                  "Po Po coming through!" all rights reserved DJS



                  'Do we really need 'smart bombs' to drop on these dumb bastards?'

                  http://www.snipercompany.com/

                  M16/AR15/M4 Armorer

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Yes, and most of the rifles you get are marked .223 instead of 5.56. And have a Wylde chamber.

                    I don't know any place where you can actually buy 5.56 ammo except the surplus market. And as I said, it's drying up.
                    "Say hal-lo to my leetle frahnd!"

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by -Erik- View Post


                      That is your patrol rifle? Sorry if I missed it while reading through the thread, but what rifle is that and much do all those add ons run? If you dont mind saying that is.
                      It is indeed my patrol rifle. It is a Bushmaster M4A3 with an EOTech red dot optic, LaRue BUIS, M4 handguards, Hogue grip, Streamlight M3LED on a TDI bayonet lug mount, with a Spec Ops Mamba sling attached to a side sling swivel. It currently has a Magpul CTR stock on it, and I'm LOV'N it!

                      Let's see, $760 for the rifle...
                      $330 for the optic
                      $89 for the BUIS
                      $169 for the light
                      $25 for the mount
                      $20 for the side sling swivel
                      $30 for the sling
                      $20 for the grip
                      $40 for the handguards
                      and $110 for the stock...

                      Anybody good at math?
                      J. Wise

                      AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                      "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                      Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by bankfraudguy View Post
                        GREAT THREAD and thank you for putting it all together. I was also reading all the fall out at arfcom this weekend from your guide and I got a question.
                        I have been keeping up with my thread over there, and all I have seen is some GREAT information that helped me make my thread even better.

                        What "fallout?"

                        I got a little turned off by all the negative CMMG comments and they seemed to be from experiences years ago. Comments regarding barrel quality, finish color, and stake jobs were all over the map.
                        What are you talking about? On my thread, or somewhere else? I didn't see any of that.

                        Accuracy speaks, so in spite of all the debates about steel certification and such, what would you rate the accuracy of your CMMG compared to the others you have experience with?

                        1MOA? 2 MOA? Improved Cylinder?
                        I haven't shot it over sand bags, if that's what you're asking. I have sighted it in at distance, and shot it in "run and gun" conditions. Never had an issue.

                        I will deliberately take it out for groups in the near future. I'll throw a 10X scope on it to see how it does.

                        Also, I found some "in stock" Colt 6920's but am on the fence about a Colt Carbine vs a CMMG Midlength...
                        If you don't mind supporting a company that doesn't support you, go ahead. They can rot in hell before I give 'em a shiny dime. Excellent rifle, though...

                        CMMG, on the other hand, is a FANTASTIC company with a fantastic customer support track record. That middy is calling your name, and you KNOW it!!
                        J. Wise

                        AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                        "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                        Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Gene L View Post
                          Yes, and most of the rifles you get are marked .223 instead of 5.56.
                          First off, you're probably referring to the receiver markings, and not the barrel markings. This is not correct. The barrel is what matters.

                          And have a Wylde chamber.
                          I highly doubt this. Wylde chambers are usually isolated to stainless steel barrels.

                          I don't know any place where you can actually buy 5.56 ammo except the surplus market. And as I said, it's drying up.
                          Winchester makes 5.56NATO available to the consumer market. Hornady also markets .223 AND 5.56NATO in their TAP lineup.

                          And when you can get it, the Milsurp is still the cheapest ammo on the block (except for Wolf.)

                          ** And just to reiterate why it is important for a patrol rifle to have a 5.56NATO chamber, you don't always get to buy what you shoot. My department used to use Winchester White Box .223 ammo for practice ammo. Then we started getting some Winchester 5.56NATO Q3131 mixed into the bunch. Then we could only get Winchester's (5.56NATO) M855 Penetrator 62gr ammo, so that's what we used.

                          Of course, we issue Winchester Ranger 69gr BTHP .223rem, but we practice with 5.56. 5.56NATO chambers can tolerate all of it, while a .223rem chamber would not do well with our choice of practice ammo.
                          Last edited by jwise; 01-30-2008, 10:24 PM.
                          J. Wise

                          AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                          "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                          Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

                          sigpic

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                          • #58
                            This is the barrel marking::

                            J. Wise

                            AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                            "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                            Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

                            sigpic

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                            • #59
                              hey jwise, great thread, very helpful. ive only got one question: what about armalite?

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                              • #60
                                Well, truth be told, nobody has EVER asked me about an Armalite rifle. They aren't very common, except for their AR-10 rifles, and I have rarely held one. It's been years since I've even seen one, so I pretty much wrote it off as a "non-starter."

                                If anyone has pictures of a recent Armalite carbine set up in M4 configuration, I would be happy to post pictures and address the brand.
                                J. Wise

                                AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                                "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                                Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

                                sigpic

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