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  • Would you say that a free float rail is the ONLY way to mount a vertical fore grip or just the best way? Those add on rails that bolt to stock handguards look like they'll work but may not be sturdy enough...

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    • Originally posted by bankfraudguy View Post
      Would you say that a free float rail is the ONLY way to mount a vertical fore grip or just the best way? Those add on rails that bolt to stock handguards look like they'll work but may not be sturdy enough...
      My very first experience with rails was one of those "bolt on" pieces of rails. You place it on the top or bottom of the existing handguards and use two bolts to secure it.

      I had to spend more time tightening those stupid bolts then anything else.

      Save yourself the frustration and buy a quality set of rails.
      “The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed."

      "You go for a man hard enough and fast enough, he don't have time to think about how many's with him; he thinks about himself, and how he might get clear of that wrath that's about to set down on him."

      Comment


      • Originally posted by bankfraudguy View Post
        Would you say that a free float rail is the ONLY way to mount a vertical fore grip or just the best way? Those add on rails that bolt to stock handguards look like they'll work but may not be sturdy enough...
        They work, but they aren't that great. I had a bolt on rail for a VFG a while back, but it constantly shifted on me. I put up with it for a while, but I finally ditched it.

        Get some form of a railed forearm, either free float or not. You'll be happier in the long run.
        J. Wise

        AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

        "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

        Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

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        • IMHO a true free float forearm with rails is the best way to go if you are planning on using some type for vertical fore grip. A true free float forearm I define as one that is i threaded onto a locking barrel nut and bolts, locks or pins the forearm into the integral barrel nut so it won't shift or rotate. I think that these the best way to go if you are planning on using some type of vertical fore grip or Surefire fore grip light. A person can put a lot of torque on a vertical fore grip, which can cause the bolt on rails and look alike free float fore ends to shift.

          CY6
          Greg Sullivan "Sully"
          http://www.SLR15.com
          http://www.TheDefensiveEdge.com

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          • I think the thread has stayed within the confines of the original subject. We just disagree on some of the finer points.

            jwise - Go look into frangable ammo for 9mm. If you compare them to similar ammo for 5.56 the penetration is less. Compare ball to ball ammo, then the 5.56 will easily outpenetrate most any pistol round that I know of.


            As far as your original posts - I have stated already and will state again, they are very informative. The pictures are detailed and it is a credit to the board.

            My point of contention is your complete "dismissal" of subject matter brought up for conversation's sake. Two examples: The 9mm AR carbine and as you call them "hobby firearms" - i.e. referring to Olympic arms brand in particular.

            Olympic arms sells complete rifles, and a new officer may run into one at a gun shop, so what type of service do you provide him by dismissing it as a "hobby gun" based off of what experiances with them?

            That's the point.

            Perhaps you can use this thread to expound on the likes/dislikes of other brands that are commonly found in gun shops as well as perhaps make up a primer on what to look for on other AR types at shops, receivers - i.e. forged versus investment cast, etc.
            Last edited by formerNOPD; 02-29-2008, 10:20 AM.

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            • Originally posted by GLOCKMASTER View Post
              I know that the above are not from the FBI because I have their latest ballistic publication on cd. They also specifically ask that the information in that cd not be disseminated. The data above came from a report that I obtained from Dr. Gary Roberts who I would say is qualified to speak about ballistic data. If you would like I can email you a copy of that report.

              If a 9mm 115 grn. is all that out of a 16" carbine, put up some QUALIFIED data.
              Still waiting to see the qualification for the DATA you posted. I'll be happy to do some tests and post data for a 115gr 9mm HP this summer from my carbine, although it is 11.5" versus 16" and will compare it with some 5.56mm loads.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by SLR15 View Post
                In the early 90's we issued MP5's for all the patrol cars. Our agency still has a few MP5's out on patrol and we still occasionally kick doors with MP5's. The key is you have to be able to put rounds on your intended target. There is no question that the .223/5/56 has advantages like being able to penetrate soft armor, and has better accuracy and distance capabilities. The pistol caliber carbines offer decent accuracy and most loadings will give decent accuracy out to 100yds. For me I have found that the key past 100yds is learning the trajectory compensation, I have personally been able to hit steel targets out to 350yds with a 9mm MP5. My comfort with the pistol calibers is based on experience behind the weapons and as I said before that I would not feel inferior going into a gunfight with an MP5 or pistol caliber AR15 in either semi-automatic for select-fire as it is about hits. I have worked patrol and SWAT a lot of years with an MP5 and I am comfortable with my capabilities with the pistol caliber, given the choice I would opt for the rifle caliber for its capabilities but I would not feel inferior with a pistol caliber. Some administrations are totally against rifle calibers due to the misbeliefs they have about the rifle caliber ballistics versus pistol caliber ballistics, but keep in mind that a pistol caliber carbine is better than no carbine at all.

                CY6
                Greg Sullivan "Sully"
                http://www.SLR15.com
                http://www.TheDefensiveEdge.com
                Thanks for the response sully. This is exactly what I was trying to point out. Concentrate more on shot placement and worry less about bullet size.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by formerNOPD View Post
                  jwise - Go look into frangable ammo for 9mm. If you compare them to similar ammo for 5.56 the penetration is less.
                  That's not an apples to apples comparison. I used duty ammo vs duty ammo, which I believe is more appropriate. It is important to remember, caliber only means the size of the exit hole (muzzle.) The bullet and charge constitutes the "load", and is a better qualifier for what it will do when it hits a target.

                  Compare ball to ball ammo, then the 5.56 will easily outpenetrate most any pistol round that I know of.
                  This is not true, but if you can't see it, I don't have the energy to argue with you. It also depends on what you mean by "penetrates." If you mean "defeat body armor", then yes. If you mean penetrate through ballistic gelatin, then 'no.'

                  Please take a careful look at the 223 FMJ (M193 and M855) vs the pistol rounds. The pistols penetrated MUCH deeper than the FMJ 5.56 rounds.



                  Olympic arms sells complete rifles, and a new officer may run into one at a gun shop, so what type of service do you provide him by dismissing it as a "hobby gun" based off of what experiances with them?;
                  I showed pictures of an Olympic, I talked about it briefly, the chart shows all the data. What MORE do you want? It is sub-par by all accounts, and is therefore relegated to "hobby-gun" status. I'm glad your's works. Feel privileged. I don't want one, and I am NOT going to recommend one.

                  Perhaps you can use this thread to expound on the likes/dislikes of other brands that are commonly found in gun shops
                  These are the brands I see in most shops, and the brands that are talked about on most boards. I don't get very many people asking about High Standard, Armalite, Doublestar, or other lesser known brands.

                  perhaps make up a primer on what to look for on other AR types at shops, receivers - i.e. forged versus investment cast, etc.
                  I purposefully chose not to go in to all the brands who just make lower receivers or parts kits.

                  That's enough about this. This is my last word on the topic in this thread. Start a new one if you want to talk about it any more.
                  Last edited by jwise; 02-29-2008, 10:25 PM.
                  J. Wise

                  AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                  "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                  Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

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                  • Lol - Ok...

                    You use the same unqualified data from your buddy there. Ballistic gelatin is not the end all be all on penetration, is it a method but not anywhere near a perfect one to measure the strengths or weaknesses of a particular round and it's performance. You mention body armor.... Well, do some body armor tests, windshields, wet phone books, earth/dirt tests etc.

                    Frangible ammo is used by some agencies. And its as fair as a comparison as comparing .223 hps to 9mm FMJ...
                    Last edited by formerNOPD; 03-01-2008, 08:41 AM.

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                    • Also, I was not asking you to "recommend" anything, just expound on some more of the complete rifles that a potential officer may run into at a local gunshop. On one of your rifles you even post you'd "pass" on buying one, well that is fair enough, but to simply dismiss that rifle based on a chart with dubious information at best and a personal yet unqualified opinion is well, just plain ignorance. Good luck with your job at the PD.
                      Last edited by formerNOPD; 03-10-2008, 09:33 AM.

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                      • I don't think that there are going to be very many people on this thread interested in buying a 9mm AR. I think most people that are going to read this thread are new to the AR15 world and are going to want the more common 5.56 or maybe even a 6.8..... I can shoot a 9mm out of a hand gun, or better yet, an MP5... If im carrying a 14 to 16 inch barrel, that barrel is going to have 5.56 markings........... That's just my honest opinion though.
                        Last edited by js308; 03-04-2008, 05:52 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by bankfraudguy View Post
                          GREAT THREAD and thank you for putting it all together.

                          Accuracy speaks, so in spite of all the debates about steel certification and such, what would you rate the accuracy of your CMMG compared to the others you have experience with?

                          1MOA? 2 MOA? Improved Cylinder?
                          Well, I have been VERY busy lately, and have not been able to get to the range with all the needed equipment to do a thorough testing/eval of the CMMG's accuracy.

                          This afternoon, I managed to squeeze 30-45 minutes in before I went in to work.

                          I shot the CMMG MOD4 16" upper with my Bushmaster lower, which has the RRA NM 2-stage trigger installed. That's the trigger I'm most comfortable with, so I wanted to use it instead of the stock trigger in my CMMG lower. I mounted a Simmons Aetec 10X scope on top, and shot Winchester Ranger 69gr BTHP through it at 50yds over a bag. The bag was NOT my typical range bag, but a gear bag with my body armor, chest rig, and other uniform pieces inside. Needless to say, this was not ideal.

                          In addition, I was rushed, and had to REALLY struggle to breathe correctly and settle down for each shot.

                          The results were a 1" 7-shot group.

                          I'm satisfied with this, as it puts the rounds inside the target zone out to realistic ranges.
                          J. Wise

                          AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                          "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                          Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

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                          • As an aside, I also shot my RRA stainless steel 1/8 twist 16" midlength.

                            I shot the same ammo, and the same scope was mounted on top (I have the scope on a QD base, so I can switch it around easily.)

                            I shot a comparable 5-shot group from this upper, so I am sure the limiting factors for each was my marksmanship today, and not the barrels' inherent accuracy.
                            J. Wise

                            AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                            "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                            Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

                            sigpic

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                            • I'm about to order an LMT upper. Probably going to go with the MRP carbine length with the gas piston system. LMT says the rifle length MRP rail is not gas piston compatable. I see people ordering enhanced bolt carriers. What is enhanced about a bolt carier group vs non enhanced? Do people put Full Auto Bolt Carrier Groups in their semi autos? Is this something worth investing in?

                              Thanks!!

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                              • Here are the pictures of the two targets. The white square in the bottom right corner (nearly cropped out of the picture) is a 1"X1" square.

                                CMMG MOD4 16" 1/7 twist upper shooting Winchester 69gr BTHP (7 rounds):



                                And this one was shot with the RRA Wilson Stainless 1/8 twist midlength shooting Winchester 69gr BTHP (5 rounds):



                                As you can see, the groups are hovering right around 1" at 50yds. This is not stellar, but it is acceptable given the circumstances. Most likely this was a test of my marksmanship today, more than a true test of the barrels.
                                Last edited by jwise; 03-06-2008, 03:33 AM.
                                J. Wise

                                AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                                "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                                Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

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