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  • Originally posted by justhomp View Post
    I'm curious, besides the looks, what do you like about them?
    looks, firing rate, and weight of the rifle. come on they're the next generation assault rifle. I mean no offense to american gun makers but you have to hand it to those european weapon makers they sure know how to add style with firepower.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by formerNOPD View Post
      Interesting yet unqualified information. Makes, models, length of barrels, twist rates all factor in, as well as what is an "interior wall" ? Got to know what you're shooting at now right?

      Some interior walls are plaster over board, some drywall, some panelling etc. Hell a BB gun will penetrate most of those easily. Before you take what the "FBI" has posted for the gospel, you may want to conduct tests yourself. In fact some LE personnel do use 55gr or 62gr FMJs in their patrol carbines.


      Oh and BTW - these charts are not from the FBI, they are from Los Angeles, and they are the LAST source I'd trust with ANYTHING related to guns...lol.
      I know that the above are not from the FBI because I have their latest ballistic publication on cd. They also specifically ask that the information in that cd not be disseminated. The data above came from a report that I obtained from Dr. Gary Roberts who I would say is qualified to speak about ballistic data. If you would like I can email you a copy of that report.

      If a 9mm 115 grn. is all that out of a 16" carbine, put up some QUALIFIED data.
      Last edited by GLOCKMASTER; 02-26-2008, 03:06 PM.
      "Life's goal should not be to show up at your final resting spot in a well rested, well preserved body ready to pass on.... But rather sliding in side ways late for your own passing, tired, beaten down and yelling holy $hit what a ride!!!!!"

      Comment


      • Originally posted by jwise View Post
        I must admit I have never seen a Colt in that configuration, and I most likely assumed the DPMS was a CAR gas system under the handguards. Thanks for the info.



        THIS is consistent with the info that I have gotten in the past. You can do it, but it will not run well. Thanks for throwing in your weight on the issue.

        Like I said, until I see these rifles in larger numbers and working as advertised over the long-haul, I'm not spending MY money on one. Not when midlengths accomplish (nearly) the same thing in a more reliable package.



        Sully-- you say you wouldn't feel "inferior" with a pistol caliber rifle, but are you referring to a SMG or a semi-auto, 16" barrel 9mm upper? I tried to make a distinction between the two, keeping my criticism strictly to the SA, 16" 9mm, un-suppressed upper.

        In the early 90's we issued MP5's for all the patrol cars. Our agency still has a few MP5's out on patrol and we still occasionally kick doors with MP5's. The key is you have to be able to put rounds on your intended target. There is no question that the .223/5/56 has advantages like being able to penetrate soft armor, and has better accuracy and distance capabilities. The pistol caliber carbines offer decent accuracy and most loadings will give decent accuracy out to 100yds. For me I have found that the key past 100yds is learning the trajectory compensation, I have personally been able to hit steel targets out to 350yds with a 9mm MP5. My comfort with the pistol calibers is based on experience behind the weapons and as I said before that I would not feel inferior going into a gunfight with an MP5 or pistol caliber AR15 in either semi-automatic for select-fire as it is about hits. I have worked patrol and SWAT a lot of years with an MP5 and I am comfortable with my capabilities with the pistol caliber, given the choice I would opt for the rifle caliber for its capabilities but I would not feel inferior with a pistol caliber. Some administrations are totally against rifle calibers due to the misbeliefs they have about the rifle caliber ballistics versus pistol caliber ballistics, but keep in mind that a pistol caliber carbine is better than no carbine at all.

        CY6
        Greg Sullivan "Sully"
        http://www.SLR15.com
        http://www.TheDefensiveEdge.com

        Comment


        • Originally posted by formerNOPD View Post
          As for other brands, well there are a ton of them. My 9mm is a colt system built on an ameetec lower. I also have an ASA lower/bushy AR, a superior arms lower with Model 1 sales A2 kit on it, 3 essential arms lowers - 1 steel, the other 2 forged alum all with differant kits from either M&A, Sarco, or Model 1 sales built on them. I also have a Colt SP1 from back in the day. I've owned two olympics and they were just fine. One was very old school - machined aluminum. Never a hiccup at all.
          Please keep in mind my target audience. This is meant to be a buyer's guide (not a builder's guide) for the typical street officer who is looking to buy a patrol rifle for duty. Most will be non-firearms enthusiasts, and aren't looking to build, even if their department would allow it.

          In addition, I am trying to keep this concise, including everything it NEEDS, but leaving out the information only advanced AR owners/builders would be interested in.

          Finally, this is not meant to include every possible piece or brand of receiver you COULD find out there, only what is common to find in complete packages (not parts kits or stripped receivers.)

          How about getting pics, feedback from those that own these types of lowers and setups to round out your buyers guide, it could be another post or something "made by who?" lol.
          I think it should definitely be a separate post, and it could be done very well with lots of information for someone looking to build an AR. Having built complete ARs before (lots of 'em, I'm sure!), I think it would be great if you took on this endeavor. I'd come over and check it out, and throw in my experience with building lowers.

          The only reason I think that people should not always push the "in" brand is that there are plenty of milspec parts out there these days -everyone is making them and a lot come from the sources and filter down into the suppliers. I have used these parts to assemble quality guns for years.
          I feel like you didn't even read the post, even though you have stated otherwise. Perhaps you just dismissed all my photos, detailed descriptions, and information as "internet hype."
          J. Wise

          AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

          "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

          Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

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          • Originally posted by GLOCKMASTER View Post
            I know that the above are not from the FBI because I have their latest ballistic publication on cd. They also specifically ask that the information in that cd not be disseminated. The data above came from a report that I obtained from Dr. Gary Roberts who I would say is qualified to speak about ballistic data. If you would like I can email you a copy of that report.

            If a 9mm 115 grn. is all that out of a 16" carbine, put up some QUALIFIED data.
            Glockmaster-- First of all, I want to thank you for being a contributing member of this site, and this forum specifically. Since you've joined us, I have learned to anticipate reading your posts, as they are always filled with accurate information seasoned with experience.

            I appreciate your efforts in this thread, trying to shed light on a subject that, truthfully, can be seen as very subjective. Ballistics is a science, but more often than not its an art. "Who did the testing" is oftentimes more important than what the testing showed. And of course, NOBODY trusts ANYBODY else's tests!

            I don't know why we're still arguing over ballistics, as everyone who has eyes to see knows and understands the truth, and those who don't see will never believe it until their own trusted source tells them otherwise. I really appreciate the information you posted, and think it really added to the thread.

            FormerNOPD-- If you honestly think that 115gr JHP out of a 4" barrel will penetrate less than a quality duty round in 5.56, you are mistaken. I can't prove it in any way that you would be satisfied by, so I won't try, but please stop arguing this point until YOU can prove otherwise.
            J. Wise

            AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

            "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

            Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

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            • I just thought of something- Magsafe and RBCD (sic) ammo probably makes a 9mm load that will penetrate less than 5.56, but I don't know of anybody who issues it.

              Of course, I don't know if those companies are even still in business. I haven't seen anything by them in a WHILE!
              Last edited by jwise; 02-26-2008, 09:45 PM.
              J. Wise

              AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

              "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

              Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

              sigpic

              Comment


              • Holy crap... talk about thread degradation...

                It's turned into a ****ing match about who has more extensive/better/educated/whatever knowledge.

                Different calibers will kill you just as dead. Some do it "better".
                "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." - George Orwell's Animal Farm

                Comment


                • Originally posted by beavo451 View Post
                  Holy crap... talk about thread degradation...

                  It's turned into a ****ing match about who has more extensive/better/educated/whatever knowledge.

                  Different calibers will kill you just as dead. Some do it "better".
                  "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." - George Orwell's Animal Farm
                  Amen...lets stay on point
                  -"He detested failure more than anything else, even betrayal. Betrayal required intelligence and ruthlessness, failure only stupidity or lack of concentration."
                  -Daniel Silva

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by nogginbuster24 View Post
                    looks, firing rate, and weight of the rifle. come on they're the next generation assault rifle. I mean no offense to american gun makers but you have to hand it to those european weapon makers they sure know how to add style with firepower.
                    I disagree, but this is the topic for a new thread. Start one, and I'll add my 2 cents.
                    J. Wise

                    AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                    "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                    Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 135dB View Post
                      Amen...lets stay on point
                      The original issue (9mm AR-15s) was in keeping with the spirit of the thread. While the discussion did get a bit long, and definitely generated some passionate responses, it resulted in some excellent information coming out. Most likely the discussions answered some questions out there as well as cleared up some misunderstanding about pistol vs rifle "over-penetration" issues.

                      Differing opinions and lively discussions (as long as personal attacks are left out) inspire creative thinking and can result in new solutions to old problems.
                      J. Wise

                      AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                      "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                      Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

                      sigpic

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                      • I'm quoting myself here:

                        Originally posted by lt1z28 View Post
                        I'd like to know your opinion (other opinions are welcome as well!) on the 9mm AR-15. Would it be worth buying one of those or would it be better to stick with the 5.56?
                        Sorry about ruining your awesome thread Jwise.

                        My fault!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                        Comment


                        • While the topic was a bit of a drift, I think it was a very good one, and the resulting information that came of it was well worth it.

                          No apologies needed.
                          J. Wise

                          AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                          "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                          Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

                          sigpic

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                          • JWise,
                            I hope this does not throw this excellent thread off issue, but you mentioned "building" an AR.. To a newbie, when I receive my new 5.56 LMT AR with the Monolithic Rail Platform, what else is there to do to a gun like that? You mean there are more upgrades??
                            Last edited by js308; 02-27-2008, 09:22 PM.

                            Comment


                            • You will want rail panels (or "ladders") to protect your rails (and to protect your hands while holding them!), a light, a sight (iron or optic), and you might want a vertical foregrip, a different pistol grip, a different trigger guard, a different trigger, a different flash hider, a different trigger pin set, etc....

                              When I say "build," I mean what I am helping my friend do. He bought a stripped lower receiver at the gunshow this past weekend, and I picked up a lower parts kit for him. The lower parts kit comes in a blister pack, and contains all the pins, springs, and parts needed to finish out the receiver (trigger, bolt catch, mag release, pistol grip, etc...)

                              He is going to actually ASSEMBLE the lower, then buy a complete upper receiver later on. Actually, he is now talking about building the upper as well! It's fun if you like working with your hands, which he does.
                              Last edited by jwise; 02-27-2008, 09:41 PM.
                              J. Wise

                              AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                              "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                              Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

                              sigpic

                              Comment


                              • Oh Ok nice! I was already planning on getting some of those things.

                                Thank you!

                                Comment

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