Leader

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

So you want to buy an AR-15, huh?

Collapse

300x250 Mobile

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • FormerNOPD- Blackdog was saying he wants to get a PERSONAL website up, so he can post links to HIS own writings about certain issues. He's well aware of the above websites.

    I think you hit the nail on the head when you said this, "I am not saying [the 9mm carbines] are better than a .223, yet I would never dismiss them all the way around,"

    and this

    "What if you're not allowed to have a .223 caliber weapon? Would you rather have a carbine in the same caliber as your sidearm with better ballistics and superior range to your handgun or just stick it out with a pistol?"

    I was simply saying the 5.56 is a BETTER all-around caliber for the AR platform, and for the sake of simplicity, disregarded the 9mm, as it really is the topic for a new thread.

    I think it was in the first post of this thread where I stated that you have to keep in mind your operational parameters, which includes your policies. Of course I would rather have a 9mm rifle than none at all.
    J. Wise

    AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

    "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

    Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

    sigpic

    Comment


    • If I am on patrol I would prefer a G36K assault rifle. M4 is fine but man there's something about those G36Ks.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by nogginbuster24 View Post
        If I am on patrol I would prefer a G36K assault rifle. M4 is fine but man there's something about those G36Ks.
        I'm curious, besides the looks, what do you like about them?
        “The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed."

        "You go for a man hard enough and fast enough, he don't have time to think about how many's with him; he thinks about himself, and how he might get clear of that wrath that's about to set down on him."

        Comment


        • Originally posted by jwise View Post
          FormerNOPD- Blackdog was saying he wants to get a PERSONAL website up, so he can post links to HIS own writings about certain issues. He's well aware of the above websites.

          I think you hit the nail on the head when you said this, "I am not saying [the 9mm carbines] are better than a .223, yet I would never dismiss them all the way around,"

          and this

          "What if you're not allowed to have a .223 caliber weapon? Would you rather have a carbine in the same caliber as your sidearm with better ballistics and superior range to your handgun or just stick it out with a pistol?"

          I was simply saying the 5.56 is a BETTER all-around caliber for the AR platform, and for the sake of simplicity, disregarded the 9mm, as it really is the topic for a new thread.

          I think it was in the first post of this thread where I stated that you have to keep in mind your operational parameters, which includes your policies. Of course I would rather have a 9mm rifle than none at all.

          Ok brother, fair enough. Perhaps we should get some information from those of us that have the 9mm versions and include it with your information as well as information on the other various brands of AR15s officers are likely to run into in gunshops or shows.

          Comment


          • What information would you (as an owner of a 9mm carbine) like to add?

            What other brands would you like to see critiqued in detail?
            J. Wise

            AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

            "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

            Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

            sigpic

            Comment


            • Originally posted by formerNOPD View Post
              Compared to what? You have to qualify the statement first. I am not saying they are better than a .223, yet I would never dismiss them all the way around.
              I was actually comparing them to a .223. I figured you would get the gist from the context.

              If I was saddled by administrators who could tell you the daily status of their colon by sight, then I would have to take what I was given.

              If I was told I could have a 9mm Carbine or nothing, the choice is clean. A 9mm it is. If my option was a 9mm Carbine or a Remington 870, I would have to choose the shotgun.

              Re: your comment about engaging hardened targets by headshots. Sure that is that option. However I have seen/done enough to know that it's not an option you want to bet on. On the square range I can make 50 yard headshots with my G21 and all kinds of other fun stuff. I don't plan on that being a viable option on the two way range. Targets have this wonderful habit of moving and shooting back. While a 1oz slug from a 12ga isn't gauranteed to penetrate soft armor, it's going to be about as distracting as it can get, and will most likely incapacitate the target.

              7 yard engagemts seem to be the norm, and if you are lucky you can train for the bare minimum and make it through a career. I prefer to train for the WORST and hope for the best.

              IF you work for an agency that allows 9mm Carbines but not 12ga Shotguns, then I am sure there are deeper issues that what arms the officers carry.

              If YOU are happy with what you carry, great! It really dosent matter what I think.

              The fact is, a .223 carbine is better than a 9mm, and a 9mm is better than nothing. It is my OPINION that a 12ga is better than a 9mm. I know there are many that will disagree with me on that one, so I really won't bother to argue it past what I posted above.
              "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
              8541tactical.com - Ammo Wallets

              Comment


              • Originally posted by formerNOPD View Post
                Post your source then. I've yet to see any pistol caliber carbine out penetrate a .223 round.

                A 55gr FMJ will penetrate 1/2" of a piece of railroad track out of a 16" barrel at 100 yards. A 9mm 115gr FMJ will barely do half that out of the same length barrel at the same distance. Also the rounds for 9mm normally carried on patrol are HPs, not FMJs. I fail to see your reasoning here.
                Who in their right mind would carry .223 FMJ for a LE duty round? With all the different duty ammunition that is available, there are quite a few .223 rounds that have a lot less penetration than a 9mm in HP or FMJ. Also a 9mm has much more penetration on residential type walls than most .223 duty ammunition(duty meaning other than FMJ). Ammunition selection is the key. That is one reason why quite a few tactical teams have been switching to .223 entry rifles over the last few years.

                The FBI has a ton of data on this. Take the time to contact their ballistics lab and request on letter head their ballistics cd. It has a ton of information on it that will support the above statements. I think their information is just a little better than some of the information that floats around on some of the internet sites that you named above.

                BTW below are links to two different tests. Note that some 9mm pistols have more penetration that .223 rifles on bare gelatin. So what is it going to be out of a 9mm carbine?

                ATK Ballistics Test
                ATK Ballistics Test






                Last edited by GLOCKMASTER; 02-25-2008, 10:33 PM.
                "Life's goal should not be to show up at your final resting spot in a well rested, well preserved body ready to pass on.... But rather sliding in side ways late for your own passing, tired, beaten down and yelling holy $hit what a ride!!!!!"

                Comment


                • Oh I'm sorry I seemed to have missed one.

                  "Life's goal should not be to show up at your final resting spot in a well rested, well preserved body ready to pass on.... But rather sliding in side ways late for your own passing, tired, beaten down and yelling holy $hit what a ride!!!!!"

                  Comment


                  • I knew Win 69gr BTHP was good stuff, but I didn't know it performed so well against all the rest. Over 70% fragmentation, perfect 12" of penetration, and 1/3 of the penetration of 40 S&W.

                    Thanks Glockmaster!
                    J. Wise

                    AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                    "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                    Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • duplicate sorry
                      Last edited by formerNOPD; 02-26-2008, 10:14 AM. Reason: double tap post

                      Comment


                      • So where's the data on what weapons these were fired from and where is the 115gr hp on the list?

                        Since you did not state you were using some type of special .223 ammo I assumed that you meant FMJ.

                        Also I don't take anything that the FBI does as scientific in any way. Get White labs involved if you want data.


                        Many factors are involved in ballistics - weight and style of the bullet, length of the barrel being the two most important.

                        Oh and the 147gr 9mm bullet will not perform well at all out of a 16" barrelled carbine.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by GLOCKMASTER View Post
                          Who in their right mind would carry .223 FMJ for a LE duty round? With all the different duty ammunition that is available, there are quite a few .223 rounds that have a lot less penetration than a 9mm in HP or FMJ. Also a 9mm has much more penetration on residential type walls than most .223 duty ammunition(duty meaning other than FMJ). Ammunition selection is the key. That is one reason why quite a few tactical teams have been switching to .223 entry rifles over the last few years.

                          The FBI has a ton of data on this. Take the time to contact their ballistics lab and request on letter head their ballistics cd. It has a ton of information on it that will support the above statements. I think their information is just a little better than some of the information that floats around on some of the internet sites that you named above.

                          BTW below are links to two different tests. Note that some 9mm pistols have more penetration that .223 rifles on bare gelatin. So what is it going to be out of a 9mm carbine?

                          ATK Ballistics Test
                          ATK Ballistics Test







                          Interesting yet unqualified information. Makes, models, length of barrels, twist rates all factor in, as well as what is an "interior wall" ? Got to know what you're shooting at now right?

                          Some interior walls are plaster over board, some drywall, some panelling etc. Hell a BB gun will penetrate most of those easily. Before you take what the "FBI" has posted for the gospel, you may want to conduct tests yourself. In fact some LE personnel do use 55gr or 62gr FMJs in their patrol carbines.


                          Oh and BTW - these charts are not from the FBI, they are from Los Angeles, and they are the LAST source I'd trust with ANYTHING related to guns...lol.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by jwise View Post
                            I knew Win 69gr BTHP was good stuff, but I didn't know it performed so well against all the rest. Over 70% fragmentation, perfect 12" of penetration, and 1/3 of the penetration of 40 S&W.

                            Thanks Glockmaster!
                            Question is: At what range? and out of what weapon?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Blackdog F4i View Post
                              I was actually comparing them to a .223. I figured you would get the gist from the context.

                              If I was saddled by administrators who could tell you the daily status of their colon by sight, then I would have to take what I was given.

                              If I was told I could have a 9mm Carbine or nothing, the choice is clean. A 9mm it is. If my option was a 9mm Carbine or a Remington 870, I would have to choose the shotgun.

                              Re: your comment about engaging hardened targets by headshots. Sure that is that option. However I have seen/done enough to know that it's not an option you want to bet on. On the square range I can make 50 yard headshots with my G21 and all kinds of other fun stuff. I don't plan on that being a viable option on the two way range. Targets have this wonderful habit of moving and shooting back. While a 1oz slug from a 12ga isn't gauranteed to penetrate soft armor, it's going to be about as distracting as it can get, and will most likely incapacitate the target.

                              7 yard engagemts seem to be the norm, and if you are lucky you can train for the bare minimum and make it through a career. I prefer to train for the WORST and hope for the best.

                              IF you work for an agency that allows 9mm Carbines but not 12ga Shotguns, then I am sure there are deeper issues that what arms the officers carry.

                              If YOU are happy with what you carry, great! It really dosent matter what I think.

                              The fact is, a .223 carbine is better than a 9mm, and a 9mm is better than nothing. It is my OPINION that a 12ga is better than a 9mm. I know there are many that will disagree with me on that one, so I really won't bother to argue it past what I posted above.

                              No problem, I understand what you are stating now. In my patrol car I carried both - shotgun and 9mm AR. Biggest drawback to the guage is accuracy past 50 yards and capacity. I carried one anyway.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by jwise View Post
                                What information would you (as an owner of a 9mm carbine) like to add?

                                What other brands would you like to see critiqued in detail?

                                There is a ton of information out there. As for other brands, well there are a ton of them. My 9mm is a colt system built on an ameetec lower. I also have an ASA lower/bushy AR, a superior arms lower with Model 1 sales A2 kit on it, 3 essential arms lowers - 1 steel, the other 2 forged alum all with differant kits from either M&A, Sarco, or Model 1 sales built on them. I also have a Colt SP1 from back in the day. I've owned two olympics and they were just fine. One was very old school - machined aluminum. Never a hiccup at all.

                                How about getting pics, feedback from those that own these types of lowers and setups to round out your buyers guide, it could be another post or something "made by who?" lol.

                                The only reason I think that people should not always push the "in" brand is that there are plenty of milspec parts out there these days -everyone is making them and a lot come from the sources and filter down into the suppliers. I have used these parts to assemble quality guns for years.

                                My background is USMC armorer, USCG MLE(10yrs AD for both), City and County Cop and police armorer for 5 years (GLock, HK, Colt), and Federal Officer for the last 5 years (FTI just recently). I shoot perfect scores on the range with rifles and pistols and have since the service. Not just expert, but perfect. USMC 250 out of 250 on KD in 1990, perfect pistol score as well. USCG perfect, Louisiana POST 120 out of 120, NM POST perfect rifle, pistol and SG, Fed academy perfect 300 out of 300. All in all I have roughly 20 years of service related firearms experiance. I have not seen it all or done it all, but I have seen enough to feel like I should relate these experiances when applicable, and believe I have earned the right to do so.

                                Comment

                                MR300x250 Tablet

                                Collapse

                                What's Going On

                                Collapse

                                There are currently 4798 users online. 228 members and 4570 guests.

                                Most users ever online was 19,482 at 12:44 PM on 09-29-2011.

                                Welcome Ad

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X