Magazine Capacity (Glock vs. Kimber)

[pofoperator]

I was recently hired by a PD here in WA. The department has several options for the issued sidearm. I am having a hard time deciding, I just keep going back and forth. The options are; Glock 21, 22, 23, OR Kimber Pro Carry II. I am very aware of the advantages and disadvantages of both weapons. I know that either would serve me well, and that all it really boils down to (as is the case with most handguns nowadays) is personal preference. I am leaning heavily towards the Kimber. My only hesitation is magazine capacity. There in lies the question. In this day of modern firearms I know that the technology does exist to make a 1911 with hi-cap. Why don't all 1911 manufacturers use this technology? My main question is, in reality will the extra rounds save my life? I have read that if you can't eliminate the threat with 8 or 9 rounds you don't have that great of a chance for survival. I see some truth in that, but also question if that was some armchair quarterback talking about something he shouldn't. I mean if there is more then one or two targets, I know that the rounds will go fast. But, I don't believe that special operators around the world, and SWAT teams would choose the 1911 platform if mag-cap was that huge of an issue. Ultimately I know that my superior tactics, training, and skill will make the difference. I am just interested in your LE opinions. Thanks.

[ThursCo]

Remember too, swat teams have a long arm with them many times, and their backup is 1/10 of a second away (team) you may not have that on the street. I'm going to guess you are being hired at Tacoma, why not ask some of the guys there?

Personally, for duty carry (keep in mind I'm not there yet) I want a double stack mag. I've used a 239 and carry around a 1911 now, and that's fine, but I don't have the same responsibilities.

[taz080]

Hi I'm not a LE but here is my opinion, do to the theats you may face on the job I think a high cap magazine is better specially if you are facing numerous perps.
You may want to check out the glock 21SF (small frame) the grip is not as wide as the regular 21.





PICTURES BY Mr. KEN LUNDE

[KenW.]

I've carried a 1911 of one type or another for my entire 15 year career and never felt under gunned. An 8 round mag in the weapon, and three 8 round spares, along with a 3" 1911 on the ankle and I feel I'm actually over prepared. Just how much ammo do you really need? You can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight.

On the rare occasion whern I may be "under gunned", I'll take the good ole' mossberg out with me.

For qualification we engage multiple targets from differing ranges moving between firing positions. For me; for 9 knock-down targets, only one reload for me & my Kimber 1911, while some SWAT deputies needed to reload their USPs twice. Go figure...

BULLET PLACEMENT IS THE KEY ISSUE, rather than caliber OR manufacturer.

[kcr]

I know 3 officers who have been shootings. One fired only 6 rounds of 9mm while the other two fired 45 and 46 (went dry) of 9mm. One of the latter now carries an extra mag in a single carrier on his belt for a total of 3 spare. The other now carries 4 spares in quad carrier.

We now carry Glock 17s on duty. I hope I never need to fire 1 round let alone 52, however it is nice to know they're there if I need them.

[kcr]

BULLET PLACEMENT IS THE KEY ISSUE, rather than caliber OR manufacturer.

Usually.

When I was with the SO we had a shooting that involved two deputies shooting into a car through the windshield. One was shooting 9 and the other .40. A couple of the .40 rounds hit the windshield and dove straight into the dash.

Ballistics are funny thing, and caliber can matter.

[John from Maryland]

pofoperator, you seem to have a good grasp on the realities of street confrontations. As you state, you would be well served with either weapons system and either calibre.

If it is possible, I would try to shoot each pistol before you make a decision. People often just prefer one pistol or another. I would also consider what particular ammunition is offered in each calibre. I can't imagine TPD making poor decisions on ammunition selection, but you might find that the ammunition in .40 performs better than what is issued in .45 or vice versa.

Since you are looking for opinions, I would personally choose the Glock. I would probably lean toward the Glock 21SF if offered, but I could live with any of the other Glock choices. I prefer to have a high magazine capacity and I do not want to fool around with a safety. While the 22 has a fifteen round magazine capacity to the 21's thirteen, I tend to favor the .45 over the .40. Magazine capacity matters more at the lower end (eight rounds versus seven) than the higher end.

While you can find double stack 1911's, my subjective opinion is that they seem to be less reliable than single stacks. Our county SWAT carried the same Paraordnance double stack 1911 that FBI HRT packed. Both teams have since transitioned to other weapons due to reliability issues. (The county to the G21 and HRT to a Springfield 1911.)

While many SWAT teams and military special operations units do utilize 1911's, many other elite teams do not. Remember that tactical units usually have much more range time than you will have. As mentioned, the pistol is often a secondary weapon for tactical units.

I confess that I am probably the only firearms instructor in the hemisphere who owns neither a 1911/BHP pistol nor a .45 in any configuration. While I have flirted with the romance of a 1911/BHP, I have yet to be seduced.

Whatever decision you make, work to the strengths of the weapon rather than worrying about what you might be carrying. Best of luck in your decision.

[KenW.]

A couple of the .40 rounds hit the windshield and dove straight into the dash.

Firing through an obstruction is part of the dynamics of shot placement. A twelve gauge slug can be deflected by a windshield too. That's one reason why we outlawed the 9mm in my agency (only.40S&W and .45ACP now), and switched to the bonded-core Gold Dots from the Hyrda-Shock.

Shooting through a tough obstruction like an angled windshield needs to be the last resort, it's simply not as effective in real-life as it is on TV. Every few years our rangemaster gets a junk car put on the range and we learn where the best places are to hit it. Esp. training to disable a car with the shotgun. A few slugs into the engine compartment or gas tank and it won't run far if the offender takes off in it.

[pofoperator]

I can't find anything on the Glock website about the G21 sl. Is the only difference that the grip is smaller? Is the capacity still the same?

[John from Maryland]

In addition to a reduced backstray, the G21SF also has an ambidextrous magazine release. Magazine capacity is still the same. While it is clearly not the most objective source, the Glock Autopistols magazine/catalogue has an article on the G21SF. Those are still available in some bookstores or you could contact Glock. I'm sure there have been/will be other articles on the weapon in the gunzines.

[pofoperator]

As I have not gone through the academy yet, and do not know my departments policies. Generally what are the guidelines for presenting your long gun in a situation. When is it justified/acceptable? Obviously you would feel more comfortable being able to have it close at hand. And having a more liberal use of it would make a difference about sidearm capacity. But I understand that if I bust out my tricked out M4, I am going to scare the $h!t out of someone. That might be good or bad.

[Nightshift va]

Magazine capacity

I was recently hired by a PD here in WA. The department has several options for the issued sidearm. I am having a hard time deciding, I just keep going back and forth. The options are; Glock 21, 22, 23, OR Kimber Pro Carry II. I am very aware of the advantages and disadvantages of both weapons. I know that either would serve me well, and that all it really boils down to (as is the case with most handguns nowadays) is personal preference. I am leaning heavily towards the Kimber. My only hesitation is magazine capacity. There in lies the question. In this day of modern firearms I know that the technology does exist to make a 1911 with hi-cap. Why don't all 1911 manufacturers use this technology? My main question is, in reality will the extra rounds save my life? I have read that if you can't eliminate the threat with 8 or 9 rounds you don't have that great of a chance for survival. I see some truth in that, but also question if that was some armchair quarterback talking about something he shouldn't. I mean if there is more then one or two targets, I know that the rounds will go fast. But, I don't believe that special operators around the world, and SWAT teams would choose the 1911 platform if mag-cap was that huge of an issue. Ultimately I know that my superior tactics, training, and skill will make the difference. I am just interested in your LE opinions. Thanks.

First I will comment on your being "well aware of the advantages and disadvantages between the Glock and Kimber,". then I will give my opinion on capacity. Both Kimber and Glock are reliable though all Kimbers Ive shot shoot circles around all Glocks Ive shot. The reason swat chooses the 1911 style is mainly because of the quick short reset of the single action trigger for follow up shots. In combat regardless of High Capacity if there is a lull in the battle training takes over and you drop the mag and put a fresh one in anyway because when you are firing you dont count your shot number that's why the 1911's are so popular because they are quick not only to shoot but to reload, same with the pro's who compete they also see the advantages to quick follow up and mag changes related to time and accuracy, so if you think like I do capacity for combat 8+1 is fine, anything else is open warfare like the military battle grounds and thats why they make the carbines and machineguns. There are plenty of Hicap 1911 style pistols but the thickness of the grip for widened mag wells takes away from the benefit of the feel of a 1911, atleast for me. If your sold on Hicap, get a G21. If you have to buy a gun for duty the price is better than a kimber and they are reliable and carry hi cap. If you dont care about price get a stainless Kimber procarry or standard full size or Warrior if you need a light rail.

[Nightshift va]

Respectful Sugestion

pofoperator, you seem to have a good grasp on the realities of street confrontations. As you state, you would be well served with either weapons system and either calibre.

If it is possible, I would try to shoot each pistol before you make a decision. People often just prefer one pistol or another. I would also consider what particular ammunition is offered in each calibre. I can't imagine TPD making poor decisions on ammunition selection, but you might find that the ammunition in .40 performs better than what is issued in .45 or vice versa.

Since you are looking for opinions, I would personally choose the Glock. I would probably lean toward the Glock 21SF if offered, but I could live with any of the other Glock choices. I prefer to have a high magazine capacity and I do not want to fool around with a safety. While the 22 has a fifteen round magazine capacity to the 21's thirteen, I tend to favor the .45 over the .40. Magazine capacity matters more at the lower end (eight rounds versus seven) than the higher end.

While you can find double stack 1911's, my subjective opinion is that they seem to be less reliable than single stacks. Our county SWAT carried the same Paraordnance double stack 1911 that FBI HRT packed. Both teams have since transitioned to other weapons due to reliability issues. (The county to the G21 and HRT to a Springfield 1911.)

While many SWAT teams and military special operations units do utilize 1911's, many other elite teams do not. Remember that tactical units usually have much more range time than you will have. As mentioned, the pistol is often a secondary weapon for tactical units.

I confess that I am probably the only firearms instructor in the hemisphere who owns neither a 1911/BHP pistol nor a .45 in any configuration. While I have flirted with the romance of a 1911/BHP, I have yet to be seduced.

Whatever decision you make, work to the strengths of the weapon rather than worrying about what you might be carrying. Best of luck in your decision.

All handguns are truely secondary weapons compared to almost any carbine, shotgun or rifle no doubt. You havent shot the right one though. That includes the BHP Browning Hipower in 9mm or 40, both excellant shooters. Try a Kimber ANYTHING in 1911 or a Smith and Wesson 1911 anything(same gun really)and see how you feel then. Also something I forgot to mention is how hard it is if not impossible to get that 13th round in that G21 mag. If a Poly hicap 45 is what you want XD is the way to go. Try the following and get back to me:

Kimber 1911: Procarry(commander size) or anything else full size in Kimber.
Smith&Wesson 1911: Any model. awesome.
Springfield XD 45acp Tactical or Standard: You shot the G21, shoot the XD then tell me what you think.

[pulicords]

Go with a Glock System

Just my $.02, but I would suggest thinking about your duty pistol as part of a weapons' system. I carry a 1911 type pistol for duty (Nighthawk Custom), but if I could carry a Glock again I'd go with either a Model 22 or 23 for "Primary Duty." Good caliber (.40) and you have the ability to use a smaller version (Model 27) for backup/off duty carry. The Model 27 carried as a backup can utilize the same magazines as your full sized duty weapon. A great tactical advantage! If you want or need to carry a larger sized off-duty weapon the Model 23 is much more compact than say a Commander sized weapon and has a 13+1 capacity vs 7 or 8+1. If you want or need a much smaller package, use your "backup" weapon- Model 27 (9+1) and you can still have one or more high capacity magazines (13 or 14 rd) nearby if needed. Glocks in general have as good or better reputation for dependability as 1911 types, but think about the "Big Picture"! Carrying the same type of weapon for primary duty/back-up/off duty makes a lot of sense.

[nkpd44]

you could always keep an 8rd mag in the gun and carry 10rd mags doublestacked on your belt.