Patrol Rifle Other than AR.

[jwise]

RE: the overall question of patrol rifles. How many rounds are actually being fired by patrol officers? Many departments did well for decades with lever action rifles. I'm not suggesting a step back, but perhaps a close evaluation of what is really the need on the street. Then, choose the weapon to fit the real, rather than percieved, need.

I don't make plans/preparations according to "most probable," but according to the worst case scenario. Blame it on the Boy Scouts...

[Sleuth]

Oh, I agree jwise. But we need some rational measure of worst possible. Otherwise, we get into the mindset that it is unsafe to hit the street without a Minigun mounted on our patrol unit, right next to the 90mm Cannon.

I did see an urban (non-SWAT) patrol officer with 8 spare mags for his AR, moaning about the fact that he could not carry a full auto like an M249 SAW, "just in case".

The question is, how much (of anything) is a realistic need.
For example, if you carry a BUG, do you carry a BUR (Back Up Rifle)? It can just go on and on.

[jwise]

I hit the streets with three long guns and four pistols. Just kidding....

[Exile]

Wow, impressive firearms knowledge. Yup, a 0.280 calibre FN-FAL was indeed trialled against the M14, together with the EM-2, a bull-pup design. Both were squashed due to US opposition to the calibre.

My force's armed units carry the G36 incidentally. How does that rate?

We've had the G36C for about a year now. It's not as good as our old Steyr AUG's, by a long way.

[Gene L]

Good article on the M 14 in this issue of The American Rifleman.

Ammo has to be de-linked machine gun ammo, as they haven't individually packaged M 14 ammo for a few decades.

As a patorl rifle, I can't think of anything worse, except maybe a Mosion Nagant 91/30.

The army is unloading its in-stock M-14s as quickly as possible. No spare parts, no extra magazines...if you want one, you can have one, but you gotta scrounge the magazines and parts yourself.

[bauerrules]

Beretta Cx4 is another awesome choice. Especially if you are issued a Beretta. I am not a cop yet, however when I do get in depending on depatment regulations I will want to carry this in a patrol car with my m4 and 500. The Beretta is better for close quarters for me because it is so light and a few inches shorter then my m4. Plus chaeper ammo.

[RJMan12]

Springfield SOCOM M14 .308 w/ 16 in. barrel. But I patrol 1100 sq. miles w/o backup.

[JohnV]

Other than an AR, I'd say I'd go with an AK variant of some sort. Good cartridge (7.62x39), reliable, lightweight, monkey-operable, etc.

As far as accuracy, I've fired my cheapo $325 WASR at distances of 100 yds and in and have no trouble hitting a man size silhouette accurately all day long. For LE purposes that's about all you need from a patrol rifle. If someone doesn't like the "image" then they can choke on it for all I care.

I'd take an "ugly" win over the world's most beautiful loss any day. The #1 priority is to come home every night (or morning, depending on your shift).

[Gene L]

If I'm going to carry something as long as a rifle, I want it to have rifle power. We've got subguns, but everyone also has a rifle.

A subgun increases your effective range, no doubt, but you're still firing a pistol bullet. so the increase is not so great in the terminal velocity department. So, for longer ranges, I prefer a rifle every time.

[JohnV]

Speaking of subguns, ammo prices aside, I'd like to see some UMP40's chambered in .357 Sig or something in 10mm...just to see what kind of performance you could squeeze out of one.

[Gene L]

Our UMPs are in 45 ACP. That's the reason we got them so cheap.

I wish they were in 40, but alas, those were unobtainable at our budget. The guys love the 45s, BTW.

[JohnV]

Our UMPs are in 45 ACP. That's the reason we got them so cheap.

I wish they were in 40, but alas, those were unobtainable at our budget. The guys love the 45s, BTW.

I've played with a UMP45 and I liked it. Not as easily controlled as an MP5, but still very manageable.

[Nightshift va]

There are obvious advantages to having a patrol rifle the same caliber as your duty handgun especially with interchangable magazines like the Beretta storms and the Marlin Camp carbines but I personally dont think a patrol rifle offers the dynamics it needs to be considered a "rifle" unless it's of a true rifle caliber from .223 caliber and up. Incidently we have M14's as patrol rifles.

[Blackdog F4i]

I have not read through all 6 pages so if this was covered forgive me.

I think that pistol caliber "patrol rifles" are a VERY poor choice. You gain a little range over your pistol, but still do not gain the ability to defeat body armor. If you deploy pistol caliber carbines you had better practice your head shots.

At a minimum I would suggest a .223 chambered rifle. For LEO engagement distances the .223 has more advantages than disadvantages. You get low recoil. Ability to defeat body armor. High accuracy out to 500 yards (depending on the weapon system). Less risk of overpenetration. A wide variety of ammuntion and the ability to change the characteristics of the weapon by changing ammo.

Personally I would rather keep my Remington 870 and a box of slugs than trade out to a pistol caliber carbine. At least with slugs you have the possibility to knock out a target wearing body armor.

I am VERY glad that my department authorized personally owned AR15's. My M4 is setup in a manner that allows me to enage targets THROUGH lite cover, defeat body armor and if necessary take headshots past 200 yards. There are not many weapon systems on the market that provide the accuracy, durability, and low maintenance of the AR platform. There are some that interest me (XCR, MagPul Massada, etc.) but none are "combat proven". Sure you could use a SKS, AK, G3, etc for a patrol rifle, but in my opinion none are as well suited to Law Enforcement than the AR.

[Sleuth]

Blackdog makes some good points. One additional issue is the LACK of need for 'spare ammo' or interchangeable mags with your handgun.
I have no hard data, but anecdotal evidence is that a single 20 or 30 round mag is enough for 99% of all patrol rifle use. 2 mags raises that to near 100%.

Yes, it is possible (but not probable) that you, alone, will have to stand off a horde of bad guys. The question is, how many rounds have been fired from patrol rifles IN THE FIELD, in actual situations? I suspect that, just as snipers have found, it is a lot less than we think.

I do question the need for most officers to carry 5-6 or more mags. Absolutely prepare for the worst case, but have a realistic view of what that worst case is likely to be. A Deputy in a remote county, such as where I live, has a different worst case than an officer in a large city. Adjust your ammo supply (and choice of weapon) to your real circumstances.

I too think that a pistol caliber carbine is a non-starter, for the reasons Blackdog listed.