Patrol Rifle Other than AR.

[Cockney Corner.]

The Brits had the right rifle in the right caliber: FN FAL in either .243 or .260 if I'm not mistaken.

The British version of the FN FAL was the L1A1, universally known as the SLR. It used 7.62mm (so 0.308). I was never in the Army, but colleagues who were, and who were old enough to have used it, seem to prefer it to its succesor, the SA80. Which, though lighter and more accurate, was an unreliable piece of c**p purchased solely because it was British manufactured rather than on the more sensible basis that it was the best rifle available.

[jwise]

Cockney- I was referring to its original chambering, not its NATO chambering.

[Cockney Corner.]

Cockney- I was referring to its original chambering, not its NATO chambering.

Wow, impressive firearms knowledge. Yup, a 0.280 calibre FN-FAL was indeed trialled against the M14, together with the EM-2, a bull-pup design. Both were squashed due to US opposition to the calibre.

My force's armed units carry the G36 incidentally. How does that rate?

[10-19]

Wow, impressive firearms knowledge. Yup, a 0.280 calibre FN-FAL was indeed trialled against the M14, together with the EM-2, a bull-pup design. Both were squashed due to US opposition to the calibre.

My force's armed units carry the G36 incidentally. How does that rate?

Over on the high road a forum member posted data from the trials when the Army was comparing the M14 to the FAL both of which ran up against the experiment's control, the M1 Garand. Based on the statistics he posted, the FAL was less accurate and failed more often than the M14. I don't recall if the test was with the FAL in .308 however.

[Sleuth]

Yes, but the head of Ord., Col. Rene Studler, had already indicated that the rifle developed at HIS Springfield Armory was superior to any foreign designed weapon. He was very big into NIH (Not Invented Here). There has always been considerable speculation that the test was "slanted".

M14- adopted only by the US and countries we gave them to.
FN FAL - Purchased by 90+ countries.

And Gene, the M14 fires the same round as our current machingun, the M249. So, no ammo supply problem, just break down a belt and fill your mags.

As for the M1 Carbine, it has a long record of failing to stop agressors. I knew a Marine vet. of Tarawa, who put 15 rounds (of ball) into a Jap Marine, who never even slowed down his charge. The gun would have been more effective in .357 Mag. Even modern soft points will not get this round up off it's knees. Mine is fun to shoot, but not a 'go to' gun to repel borders.

[Cockney Corner.]

He was very big into NIH (Not Invented Here). There has always been considerable speculation that the test was "slanted".

M14- adopted only by the US and countries we gave them to.
FN FAL - Purchased by 90+ countries.

Well, pity the poor British serviceman and woman. The SA80 (L85A1&2) our current rifle has been sold to exactly no countries whatsoever outside the UK. Heck, we even managed to sell the pitiful Tornado jet (air defence version) to the Saudis. Though we did have to bribe them quite heavily. The (British) Ministry of Defence Police don't use the SA80. No other British police force uses it. British Special Forces (who have a choice) don't use it. So if you think you have it bad with the NIH ...

[Sleuth]

I have been following the SA80 mess for some time, mostly through some friends on your side of the pond, including a REME Armorer now retired. The short form of a very long story:
The arms making branch of HM Gov was for sale. How to sell it? Ah HA, get a major contract for rifles, if they work or not. When the SA80 failed the sand test (which the L1A1 passed), they eliminated the sand test! Someone over there must have studied under Col. Studler!

They claim the SA80A2 works, but I wonder how many died before then?


(REME = Royal Electrical & Mechanical Engineers, equal to our Ord. Corps.)

[Cockney Corner.]

They claim the SA80A2 works, but I wonder how many died before then?

Again, I can't pretend to be an expert (though I did manufacture the SA80's bayonet as a summer job many years ago!) but the stories I have heard from colleagues who have recently left the Army for the Police beggar belief. A glance at the Wikipedia entry shows a selection. One that I don't think is there is the SA80's tendency to catapult its bayonet towards a target if the bayonet was fixed when it was fired (when it would fire of course).

I would heartily recommend a book called "Lions, Donkeys and Dinosaurs" by Lewis Page, a former Royal Navy officer, which covers the SA80 fiasco plus about fifty other defence procurement disasters. It would be particularly enjoyable if you're American because his suggestion in almost every case is that we would have been better off buying from the USA.

Any road. Back to patrol rifles.

[R12GS]

Unfortunately for your argument Gene, the US military doesnt agree with you, they are fielding more and more m-14's in Iraq and Afghanistan avery day.

Really? Where are they? I've yet to see them standard issue, but have seen more SR25's for "the special" people.

[jwise]

The G36 would make a great semi-auto rifle, but in FA it melts down and cracks. Not good.

[JTShooter]

Really? Where are they? I've yet to see them standard issue, but have seen more SR25's for "the special" people.

The M14 is still being issued to line units. Only it's known as the M21. We saw a lot of them showing up in theatre around 2005. This is around the time the Army instituted the "Designated Marksman Program". This basically was the answer for the need for more medium to long range weapons in theatre. This is also the time frame you started seing more ACOGs showing up as well.

This program was a quick way to field tactically trained snipers to the line units. I believe at least one solider in every squad was to be a "Designated Marksman". These soliders would go through a very abbreviated sniper course and would be issued either a M21 or the newer Designated Marksman Rifle which was basically a M16A3 with a scope.

Now back to my hidesite....

[10-19]

And Gene, the M14 fires the same round as our current machingun, the M249. So, no ammo supply problem, just break down a belt and fill your mags.

5.56 =/= 7.62.

[Sleuth]

10-19, good catch, my mistake.

It should have read ".....machingun, the M240." (Which is in 7.62 NATO). The M249 is the Squad Automatic Weapon, in 5.56. [I knew that, I just could not type it!]

Cockney C, I'll look for that book. In the same vein, I can reccomend "What We Need" by Barrett Tillman, (and not just because I'm quoted in it) being released soon. We buy submarines when the troops need socks!

RE: the overall question of patrol rifles. How many rounds are actually being fired by patrol officers? Many departments did well for decades with lever action rifles. I'm not suggesting a step back, but perhaps a close evaluation of what is really the need on the street. Then, choose the weapon to fit the real, rather than percieved, need.

[AGroves]

Hey AUG guys here's some thing for you.

http://www.tpdusa.com/index.php

[Sleuth]

Thanks - I understand those are reverse engineered. Steyr was due to open production in the U.S., but that may not happen due to the Iranian .50 Cal rifle sale.