Patrol Rifle Other than AR.

[DOAcop38]

whyyyyyyyyyyyyy

ammo is ultra expensive, and the whole system/ammo situation is pretty rediculous..not many P90 users out there really.

stick with someone thats in wide circulation.

there are much better options for you than the P90.

My depts tactical unit TRIED the P-90;They thought it was a "fun" plinker,but liked their MP-5s BETTER ;just does not do what a auto M-4 will( can penetrate body armor,sure but that mainly with the AP stuff-also doens't have the "punch" to put someone down without multiple rds)-expensive and not good for basic "monkey boy" use( patrol officers)-stick with the cheaper and proven ar-15/M-16/M-4 family.the P90 is a PDW(personal defense weapon-better suited for specialized units)My depts ESU/SRT team still love their MP5s and M-4s, but are going to the HK UMP (.45 cal) and the G36 as replacements- patrol will get the M-4s to complement our other M-4s

[david30816]

There are other rifles for patrol????? AR-15 all the way. :-)

[jwise]

My hatred for the AK is evident because some years back, a great numbe of people tried to kill me wth them. My opinion isn't intended to be masked.

So you're propagating your personal bias as advice for officers looking for a patrol rifle? That's classy...

(1) Who cares? I, for one. The public will not long fund an inferior rifle built in a Communist country. Everyone cares...there is talk all over the board about body armor and helmets "militarizing" the police.

1- AKs aren't necessarily made in a communist country. Last time I checked, Poland was our ALLY! I have an AK made in Houston, and Las Vegas, Nevada is NOT communist. A little "loose," but not commies...

(2) Of course I will limit the ability of good officers in what weapon they carry. They'll carry what they're issued. No 458 WM, no Street Sweepers. And no AK 47s.

2- We're not talking about issued weapons, we're talking about personally owned patrol rifles. And you have a serious ego issue if you think you have any say whatsoever in what another officer carries in accordance with his department's policy. Let me guess, you're one of those officers who wear long-sleeves, a tie and your service cover, and look down on those who wear sunglasses and ballcaps?

(3) AKs generally go bang with the trigger is pulled but the bullet is likely to land several inches away from where you want it to. Very imprecise, loosely built for combat reliability, and inaccurate. The idea behind it (and all assault rifles) is to put out maximum fire to gain fire superiority. That is not the idea behind police work, and is no where close. A police rifle needs to be able to engage another rifle, not lay down a base of fire. It's less accurate than a Mini 14, by a good margin. I've fired both, by the way, quite a bit. The sights are awful on an AK.

3- Either you are a horrible rifle shot, or you are lying about actually having shot an AK. I can keep 'em all in the body (8") at 100yds with my AKs. My targets shot with my AK looks JUST like other officer's targets who are shooting their ARs and Mini-14s. Don't act like they are inferior. The weak-link is the shooter, not the weapon.

(4) I think we can do better than arm ouselves with obsolete (which the AK 47 is) Soviet Bloc weapons.

4- Obsolete? Ugh!!! What's obsolete?!? A great platform with three great caliber options, the ability to easily mount a red dot sight, railed handguards available, LOTS of stock sets, flash-hiders, suppressors, etc...

Gene, you're hopeless. I understand you faced an enemy armed with AKs, but you are showing signs of serious emotional issues and have abandoned logical thought. If you have a serious PERSONAL distaste for them, FINE. Leave it alone! Don't get on here and act like it's anything BUT a personal issue. I have personal issues with a few weapons, but I don't participate in those discussions. If you want my opinion of H&K or Colt, IM me. My personal feelings aren't applicable to public discussions regarding the suitablility of such weapons for Law Enforcement.

[madchiken]

While the M4 is still our main weapon, we are starting to issue the UMP40 with red dot sights.

[Stewie]

AR15!! I dunno what it is about that rifle, but it's my favorite personal weapon!

[jwise]

AR15!! I dunno what it is about that rifle, but it's my favorite personal weapon!

I agree. But since this thread is titled, "Patrol Rifles other than ARs," I am forced to stick up for my #2 choice.

[toasterlocker]

Most gunnies have probably read this already, but I had to post it just for Gene.

http://madogre.com/Interviews/Hate_the_AR15.htm

Now THERE is an obsolete rifle! If I'm spending my own cash, no ARs for me, thanks (unless it is like jwise's piston type system, but those are a little bit out of my price range!)

[jwise]

Oh, and here is a couple pics of an "obsolete" AK in action:





And the target at 100yds. Iron sights, no optic. Can it shoot better? Heck yeah. Can I? Probably not...

[Gene L]

Actually, Jwise, I'm an excellent rifle shot. If you find 8" at 100 yards acceptable, then you're obviously not.

No AKs. If a person wants to own one, and I have owned a few, that's fine. But leave it at home or shoot it at the range and count yourself lucky if you hit something with it.

[toasterlocker]

I love the "Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is already made up" attitude!

[Gene L]

I love the "Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is already made up" attitude!

Which facts?

Shot with a Colt H-Bar. Five rounds.

[toasterlocker]

Congratulations, you are a good shot, and it wasn't with an AK. Isn't that special? That doesn't change the fact that your lack of logical reasoning in regards to the AK completely discredits anything you have to say in the argument. And are you ever going to take a shot like that as a cop with an AR or AK style rifle? I doubt it. Jwise's shots are just fine, you aren't going to take shots like that with a PATROL RIFLE.

Not to mention your whole "terrorist" rifle argument is nothing short of ridiculous, and that is saying it nicely.

[Gene L]

Congratulations, you are a good shot, and it wasn't with an AK. Isn't that special? That doesn't change the fact that your lack of logical reasoning in regards to the AK completely discredits anything you have to say in the argument. And are you ever going to take a shot like that as a cop with an AR or AK style rifle? I doubt it. Jwise's shots are just fine, you aren't going to take shots like that with a PATROL RIFLE.

Not to mention your whole "terrorist" rifle argument is nothing short of ridiculous, and that is saying it nicely.

Toasterlocker, you're not even a cop. What qualfied you to make judgements on whether my LE judgements on the AK are reasonable or not? Do you know of any major or minor city or county police agencies who arm their officers with AKs?

Go ahead, don't say it nicely. Say it convincingly. I think you're probably an armchair commando tied to a weapon that's been obsolete since 1974.

I believe my reasoning is logical, but whether it is or isn't, it is binding on the deputies under me, none of which have expressed any desire to carry a POS hacked-out copy of an obsolete rifle that MAY be able to hit a pie plate at 100 yards under ideal conditions. And none ever will.

Who knows what kind of shots I'll take? Probably, none. But it's nice to know I can if I need to, don't you think?

[JTShooter]

I am not a LEO, but I want to jump in and say that while the AK-47 and it's siblings may not be as big of a piece of s*** that some people believe, it certainly doesn't stand up to some of the other weapons available out there. If given a choice in weapondry, I would not choose the AK. There are too many other choices out there. That also being said, I believe that if you're allowed to carry a personally owned rifle on patrol, it should be with a weapon you trust and can operate through muscle memory. But, I'm not a LEO, so what do I know?


Just my .02

[Gene L]

They're fairly reliable, yes. But they're made, mostly, in China, where we've just sent 250,000 tires back for bad recall, cat food for posioning our pets, and kids toys for being painted with lead paint.

Not a POS, I mispoke. Not a cop rifle, however.