Patrol Rifle Other than AR.

[Sleuth]

Jwise, try this:
Paint your AK stock & handguard black, or put an M4 style collapsable stock on your AK, and add one of the '1913 rail' handguards, and most police officers and civilians will think it's NOT an AK.
In other words, alter the perception, without altering the reality.

(Heck, the weapons in STAR WARS were Sterling Machine Pistols and Lewis guns, with bits & pieces glued on to make them 'modernistic'. Same is true for most sci-fi movies today. )

[RCheney]

What about this type of AK... pretty blonde wood that is not threatening and a itty-bitty barrel ? Wouldn't be to scarey looking, small enough to keep anywhere and not priced out of the world? Probably would need to coat it grey to remove the rest of the EBR (evil black rifle) stigma. I am still working on this one an am waiting on the HK G3 rear sites to weld on the top cover. The recoil is SUPER light because of the 4-peice flash hider that I put on it. It has a "blast chamber" so the gases slow down enough to reduce recoil but not effect the dB rating.



thanks,
Ron

[jwise]

I've got a VEPR K which has a one-piece black plastic forend, and I put an M4 rear stock on it and a SAW grip. This TOTALLY has changed its looks. I had a pic top rail which had an Eotech mounted to it, but it was too high for my taste. I switched to a Kobra, but it stuck back too far.

Anyways, it's an "AK" that doesn't look anything like an AK. I personally like ARs better, so it's really a moot point with me.

[apexkw]

our deptartment has the beretta Cx4 Storm in a 45cal for the cars. we also have mp5s' and the ar15 in the gun room.

[Sabre]

Just that there is a perception, right or wrong, that it is (I hate this phrase) 'the weapon of choice' of terrorists.

There is that perception. I really do agree with that. However, the phrase that would be more accurate would be "the weapon that is available" to terrorists. The AK-47 is the most produced rifle of any type in the whole world. The former Soviet republic licensed its production to other nations quite liberally. Since then, everybody has been cranking out licensed and unlicensed copies to arm their conscripts or to sell to nations to equip their fledgling armies.

There are stockpiles of thousands of AKs around the world. When I was in Iraq, there were warehouses full of them, along with artillery shells, mines, missiles, RPGs, and everything else you can think of.

Terrorists use them because, first and foremost, they are available. Other than that, they are reliable and effective. Further, they are easy to teach new brainwashed radicals how to use.

[The Rabbi]

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but:

1) I notice hardly anyone has mentioned pistol caliber carbines like the Cx4 or Ruger's 9mm and .40 carbines. I am getting the feeling that when you need a rifle, you need a rifle, not a pistol with a long barrel and stock. Am I right?

2) I am thinking of starting up an LE supply co and have the FN rep coming tomorrow to sell me on stuff. Their premier product (or at least unique one) is the PS90/P90. A couple of people have posted negatives on it. I'd like to hear some elaboration before I go off gung ho trying to sell the thing.

[pulicords]

I am thinking of starting up an LE supply co and have the FN rep coming tomorrow to sell me on stuff. Their premier product (or at least unique one) is the PS90/P90. A couple of people have posted negatives on it. I'd like to hear some elaboration before I go off gung ho trying to sell the thing.

There's a lot more calibers I'd want to defend my life with other than the .22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire and as far as I'm concerned, this 5.7mm is nothing other than a centerfire version of a great rabbit rifle. No thanks! Serious situations require serious caliber weapons. I'd feel safer with an old Model 94 Winchester in 30-30. (Make that much safer!) Re: the FN pistol- I'm (obviously) a big bore fan, but I'd feel safer with a 9mm or maybe even a .380 ACP.

[Dieter122]

I just can't see them as being suitable for LE use. May be a great "OH SH*T" gun, but for me, thats where it ends.

a number of european countries use AK varients in police work...

as do many middle eastern and asian nations....

AKs are plenty accurate 100-150 yards.

find me a police engagement that happened past 100 yards...and a rifle other than a designated marksman weapon was used. typical firefights are 7-12ft for police shootouts. longest regular military engagements are 100yards and less.

accuracy differences are negligible....reliability differences are, major. Give me an AK any day of the week for engagements under 150 yards.

[Sabre]

...[The AK] May be a great "OH SH*T" gun...

I agree.

"Oh sh*t!! An armed robbery!!!"

"Oh sh*t!! An active shooter!!!"

"Oh sh*t!! A domestic involving a shotgun!!!

"Oh sh*t!! etc..."

[Gene L]

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but:

1) I notice hardly anyone has mentioned pistol caliber carbines like the Cx4 or Ruger's 9mm and .40 carbines. I am getting the feeling that when you need a rifle, you need a rifle, not a pistol with a long barrel and stock. Am I right?

2) I am thinking of starting up an LE supply co and have the FN rep coming tomorrow to sell me on stuff. Their premier product (or at least unique one) is the PS90/P90. A couple of people have posted negatives on it. I'd like to hear some elaboration before I go off gung ho trying to sell the thing.

1. Yes, you're right. The pistol bullet ballistics are pretty awful for ranges past 50 yards. We have a Ruger .40 carbine, and it's very accurate at 25 yards, despite a horrible trigger pull. And hitting a man-size silhoutte at 100 yards is possible, but not precise enough to really protect yourself with.

2. Most rifles suitable for patrol rifles are out of the price range of most departments. Except the ARs (which are expensive enough) and the Mini 14s (which are fine, but are definitely not sniper rifles.)

If you have to buy your own, and I don't think any cop should, an AUG is out of the question. An AK is a terrorist-looking weapon, and has no place in Police Work in America. Qualitiy is questionable, and ammo is steadily getting higher.

[jwise]

An AK is a terrorist-looking weapon, and has no place in Police Work in America. Qualitiy is questionable, and ammo is steadily getting higher.

Your hatred for the AK is evident.

Your opinion of your opinion is transparent.

Your knowledge of the AK is lacking for someone who speaks so much about it.

Let me dissect your statement:

1- Who cares what it looks like. There are people out there who think we should all wear long sleeves, ties, and service covers. Those people's opinions are as obsolete to my business as someone who doesn't like my rifle.

2- Do you actually choose to limit the ability of good officers to protect themselves and their communities by what kind of tools they use? Should we all use Peerless, ASP, or S&W cuffs, or should we be forced to pay for Hiatt (sp) cuffs? America is a big place, and to say something has "no place" in it is insulting for those of us out here who aren't strapped by an obsolete mindset.

3- Quality is not questionable. Some are more refined than others, but they go 'bang' when the trigger is pulled. Like ARs, if its for duty get one from one of the best manufacturers, not one of the "lower tier" companies. This is just common sense, really.

4- All ammo is going up. Did you not know this?

[Gene L]

My hatred for the AK is evident because some years back, a great numbe of people tried to kill me wth them. My opinion isn't intended to be masked.

(1) Who cares? I, for one. The public will not long fund an inferior rifle built in a Communist country. Everyone cares...there is talk all over the board about body armor and helmets "militarizing" the police.

(2) Of course I will limit the ability of good officers in what weapon they carry. They'll carry what they're issued. No 458 WM, no Street Sweepers. And no AK 47s.

(3) AKs generally go bang with the trigger is pulled but the bullet is likely to land several inches away from where you want it to. Very imprecise, loosely built for combat reliability, and inaccurate. The idea behind it (and all assault rifles) is to put out maximum fire to gain fire superiority. That is not the idea behind police work, and is no where close. A police rifle needs to be able to engage another rifle, not lay down a base of fire. It's less accurate than a Mini 14, by a good margin. I've fired both, by the way, quite a bit. The sights are awful on an AK.

(4) I think we can do better than arm ouselves with obsolete (which the AK 47 is) Soviet Bloc weapons.

[Kpdpipes]

Your hatred for the AK is evident.

Your opinion of your opinion is transparent.

Your knowledge of the AK is lacking for someone who speaks so much about it.

Let me dissect your statement:

1- Who cares what it looks like. There are people out there who think we should all wear long sleeves, ties, and service covers. Those people's opinions are as obsolete to my business as someone who doesn't like my rifle.

2- Do you actually choose to limit the ability of good officers to protect themselves and their communities by what kind of tools they use? Should we all use Peerless, ASP, or S&W cuffs, or should we be forced to pay for Hiatt (sp) cuffs? America is a big place, and to say something has "no place" in it is insulting for those of us out here who aren't strapped by an obsolete mindset.

3- Quality is not questionable. Some are more refined than others, but they go 'bang' when the trigger is pulled. Like ARs, if its for duty get one from one of the best manufacturers, not one of the "lower tier" companies. This is just common sense, really.

4- All ammo is going up. Did you not know this?

Yes the AK goes "Bang" when you pull the Trigger...and So does Any AR variant in Police Service (unless you stick the magazine in backwards..but that's another rant). I dont "Hate" the AK..i kinda like it, and regret getting rid of mine, even though under NJ law it was an evil horrid mass-murdering..well you get the picture...ANYWAY back on track. Public Perception IS a factor like it or not, also, and lets be honest here, even though your rifle only has to be "Minute of Bad Guy" accurate, wouldnt you RATHER have a rifle that was capable of between 1-2 MOA??. The AK is a GREAT Battle Rifle..IMO it's just not accurate enough, nor ergonomic enough for Police Service in todays litiginlous society, especially since you can have a REALLY decent AR that will drive tacks for just as much money as a REALLY Good AK that will drive soda cans.

[Exile]

This is an interesting thread for me as we went through a carbine replacement 'experience' about a year ago. I can't bring myself to call it a programme or even a process, it was so badly handled imho.

In case you haven't noticed I'm in the UK where we tend to carry carbines as our primary weapon, and a handgun as a backup in most routine firearms roles. Anyway, a little history. We started in the early 80's with Ruger Mini 14's, which were ok but inaccurate, but this was weighed against the likely distance involved in typical law enforcement engagements(if there is such a thing). These were replaced in the early 90's with Steyr AUG's in both 9mm and 5.56mm. Both of these types were found to be very accurate in their respective calibres, and easy to use and maintain. The 9mm's were routinely carried on Armed Response Vehicles and by Tactical Weapons Teams, and also by static site protection teams. The 5.56mm's were only used if a situation were deemed to warrant it although everyone cross trained and qualified on them. Nearly 2 years ago now, and as a result of the new suicide bomber threat there was a move to go to all 5.56mm for carbines. We actually favoured the AUG3 but trying to get hold of some for trials proved too difficult. Personally I would have skipped the trials as they are just 5.56mm AUG's with new clothes on and had already proved their capability with us. We eventually ended up doing a very short trial with SIG 552 Commandos, H&K G36C and Colt M4 LEO's. Unfortunately, all with different optics so it was not a level playing field. Most people agreed that of these three the Colt was the best carbine but politics stepped in and we ended up with the H&K(H&K=Royal Ordnance=British Owned). This was a step back as they are nowhere near as capable as our original Steyr AUG's in 5.56mm (with their 21" barrel against the H&K's mere 9", what did they expect!). We even have 4x32 ACOG's on them, with a Docter dot sight on top for good measure. All good kit but that's a sight meant for 100m+ on a gun meant for CQB at 50m and less. Also they were deemed so clumsy for room entry that we now also have MP5K PDW's with Eotechs on for this role!

Regarding appearances (as per the AK47 already mentioned), the G36C's were regarded as too scary!! We suggested painting them pink with flowers on but were told we weren't taking it seriously.......................

[gopherpuckfan]

We have MP5's and the 870 in our patrol cars. Our SWAT guys have M4's and UMP45's.