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Patrol Rifle Other than AR.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by AMT8951 View Post
    I was wondering if anyone out there carries a patrol rifle other than an AR15/m16/m4 on patrol? If so what kind? One dept. nearby carries Ruger .40cal Carbines (PCR?). Another dept just got rid of thier M1 Carbines about two years ago.

    Mini 14s are good patrol rifles, and are cheap when you buy a bunch of them. We bought them because of the price. But one advantage (and the only one) they have over the AR-types is you're sighting close to the bore and the rifle points very naturally. It's a 75-yard rifle, and not a precision rifle at that range. Problem is getting magazines. The aftermarket mags don't work and Ruger holds onto their mags like they're gold.

    I've also heard about Ruger "improving" the Mini. Usually, in factory language, this means making them cheaper. They're pretty well stuck with the platform, which isn't the best. But it's good enough for a rookie shooter to get chest shots at 75 yards, and that's OK.

    You have to keep the gas system clean, or they'll rust together. That was a serious problem found out at training when you had to kick the operating handle open. The gas port that fits over the piston (whatever it's called) needs a drop of oil, or it will rust like hell. Which means you have to go to plan II to get the rifle to shoot. I called Ruger about this, and they said, yes, it happened to them, too. Lots of help.

    We are heavier than the average small unit on longarms. We have two bolt guns, a .300 Win Mag, and a Rem .223. We also bought ten Uzis for about $200 each (non-transferable) which are excellent and cheap. And finally we bought 5 CETME rifles which are also fine rifles...not the Century Imports, but true CETMEs from Spanish surplus. Both CETMEs and Uzis were arsenal refinished.

    If you want an experience, try shooting a CETME on full auto. Or an M 14 for that matter.

    Every deputy has a long gun. Some use thier own, ARs and such. I do, in fact. But I also have an M 16 that was bought for $12 back in the Homeland Security days...An M-16A1, one of the old ones.

    Nobody shoots my M 16. Or, more accuately, the Sheriff's Office M 16. Each year, someone from the issuing agency comes around to make sure you still have the rifle. We have two, and have to produce them whenever the guy comes around from FEMA.

    Having lugged around an M 14 for the first part of my Army career, I don't like them. We had a chance to buy some cheap, but turned it down. Too much penetration, not enough accuracy. But they're nice for drill purposes.
    Last edited by Gene L; 06-19-2007, 11:17 PM.
    "Say hal-lo to my leetle frahnd!"

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    • #32
      Department is finally getting rifles and the ones they buy to issue (everybody doesn't get an issued rifle) will be Rock Rivers. I know, I know those are AR format, but I was speaking with the range staff and they suggested anyone spending their own money buy the new SIG556.
      "A fanatic is one who won't change his mind, and won't change the subject." -Winston Churchill

      "I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts." -Will Rogers

      "To desire to save these wolves in society may arise from benevolence, but it must be the benevolence of a child or a fool" -Henry Fielding

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      • #33
        Range people are always saying stuff like that. Ask him to see HIS SIG 556.

        The RRA AR 15 is a good rifle. The AR platform has served the US as a main issue rifle longer than any other rifle in history, and they've got the kinks worked out in 40 years.

        A new SIG556 sells in the neighborhood of $1300. I can't see any advantage, except they have a piston-type gas system, and that's not much of an advantage. I fired on at a demo, it shot well, but had noticably more recoil than an AR because of the piston. It also weighed more.
        "Say hal-lo to my leetle frahnd!"

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        • #34
          Just a question, a department I recently did a ride along with carried an MP5 between the seats and an HK G36 in the trunk. I hadn't seen any mention of the G36 and wondered if anyone had any experience with it?
          Nick

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          • #35
            I just saw an ad from Ruger featuring sub MOA (Minute of Angle) Mini-14's. They claimed to have outperformed a group of shooters with AR type rifles. Looked like the Mini-14 had a very large, heavy barrel and a tuneable weight on the barrel as well. No price was mentioned. Nor did they say if this was a production rifle, or a "custom shop" gun.

            With enough $$$$, you can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
            Last edited by Sleuth; 06-20-2007, 04:21 PM.
            "A man who has nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the existing of better men than himself."
            John Stuart Mill

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            • #36
              There are gunsmiths that will make a sub MOA Mini-14. But many, many ARs will shoot less than a MOA.

              Ruger sure has room for improvement, but for a patrol rifle they're fine.
              "Say hal-lo to my leetle frahnd!"

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              • #37
                No price was mentioned. Nor did they say if this was a production rifle, or a "custom shop" gun.
                The rifle in question is the labled as the Mini-14 Target Rifle. It is being sold as a standard production rifle, and is listed in the $900.00 range
                Forti Fors Bona

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                • #38
                  Gene brings up an excellent point. Patrol rifles are NOT match rifles, sniper rifles, or prairie dog rifles, and do not need that level of accuracy. With the average sniper shot at something like 75 yards, fast handling, a modicum of accuracy, and an adaquate ammunition supply seem like the critical elements for patrol work.
                  "A man who has nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the existing of better men than himself."
                  John Stuart Mill

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Sleuth View Post
                    Gene brings up an excellent point. Patrol rifles are NOT match rifles, sniper rifles, or prairie dog rifles, and do not need that level of accuracy. With the average sniper shot at something like 75 yards, fast handling, a modicum of accuracy, and an adaquate ammunition supply seem like the critical elements for patrol work.
                    But when it comes to fast handling, none other can beat the ergonomics of the AR-15. AR users are noticeably faster on the qual course than their Mini-14 counterparts. This is mostly due to AR users having red-dot optics mounted, mag changes are MUCH easier, and going "hot" is quicker with just a flick of the thumb (don't have to stick your finger in the trigger guard, which should be done with care, and not quickly.)

                    Of course, these all apply to AKs as well. While I love shooting my AKs, they are slower to get hits with than my ARs. Not so much up close on the first few shots, but at longer distances and prolonged shooting sequences, it becomes evident.
                    J. Wise

                    AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                    "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                    Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by fyrdog View Post
                      The rifle in question is the labled as the Mini-14 Target Rifle. It is being sold as a standard production rifle, and is listed in the $900.00 range
                      $900 for a Mini-14 (regardless of its accuracy) is outrageous!
                      J. Wise

                      AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                      "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                      Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Sleuth View Post
                        Gene brings up an excellent point. Patrol rifles are NOT match rifles, sniper rifles, or prairie dog rifles, and do not need that level of accuracy. With the average sniper shot at something like 75 yards, fast handling, a modicum of accuracy, and an adaquate ammunition supply seem like the critical elements for patrol work.
                        You're forgetting reliability, which always seemed to me to be the most important element of any combat weapon.
                        But otherwise you are 100% right.

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                        • #42
                          $900 for a Mini-14 (regardless of its accuracy) is outrageous!
                          Hey I don't make up the news, I just report it. The rifles are kinda neat looking, but I sure the heck wouldn't pay their MSRP.
                          Forti Fors Bona

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by tony.o View Post
                            I wonder when Remington is going to come out with their version of an AR since their pump patrol rifle seems to be going nowhere.
                            I got to shoot it. It was simple to operate. No jams. Easy to acquire target. The downside is the pump action has somewhat of an "uncool" factor about it. There is an inconvenience in operating the pump in prone position or where the supporting hand's elbow is resting on something.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by jwise View Post
                              But when it comes to fast handling, none other can beat the ergonomics of the AR-15. AR users are noticeably faster on the qual course than their Mini-14 counterparts. This is mostly due to AR users having red-dot optics mounted, mag changes are MUCH easier, and going "hot" is quicker with just a flick of the thumb (don't have to stick your finger in the trigger guard, which should be done with care, and not quickly.)

                              Of course, these all apply to AKs as well. While I love shooting my AKs, they are slower to get hits with than my ARs. Not so much up close on the first few shots, but at longer distances and prolonged shooting sequences, it becomes evident.

                              Problem is if you put a scope on the carrying handle of an AR, you've got a problem with close in accuracy. The rifle will shoot LOW because the bore is nearly 3" below the scope. If you were to try for a head shot at close range, you might hit the neck area. I don't know at what point the ARs with handles shoot reasonbly the same. My flat top AR with an Aimpoint is zeroed at 50 yards and shoots less than an inch high at 100.

                              Got no problems with fingers in the trigger guard...if you're going to shoot the rifle, you need to do that anyway, and the time difference between operating the safety and pulling the rigger of the two guns must be minimal.

                              An AK is not a patrol rifle. You don't want your LEOs toting around "terrorist" rifles. Plus, the 30 round mag makes it hard to get low on the ground.
                              "Say hal-lo to my leetle frahnd!"

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Gene L View Post
                                Problem is if you put a scope on the carrying handle of an AR, you've got a problem with close in accuracy. The rifle will shoot LOW because the bore is nearly 3" below the scope. If you were to try for a head shot at close range, you might hit the neck area. I don't know at what point the ARs with handles shoot reasonbly the same.
                                Scopes don't belong on carry handles, period. If you're going to put an optic on an AR, it should be a flattop.

                                Originally posted by Gene L View Post
                                Got no problems with fingers in the trigger guard...if you're going to shoot the rifle, you need to do that anyway, and the time difference between operating the safety and pulling the rigger of the two guns must be minimal.
                                Hmmm... It's a very minor issue, and probably has more to do with preference than an honest to goodness objective criticism. I definitely like the AR safety best.

                                Originally posted by Gene L View Post
                                An AK is not a patrol rifle. You don't want your LEOs toting around "terrorist" rifles. Plus, the 30 round mag makes it hard to get low on the ground.
                                Oh REALLY? I'm qualified on my underfolder AK and plenty of officers around the country use some variant of an AK on patrol. Your "terrorist" comment was ubsurd. And finally, ANY 30 round mag makes prone shooting difficult. Good thing they make 20rd AK mags...
                                Last edited by jwise; 06-21-2007, 11:43 PM.
                                J. Wise

                                AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                                "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                                Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

                                sigpic

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