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NYPD ends revolvers as duty guns

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  • NYPD ends revolvers as duty guns

    I saw a news blurb that after August of 2018, the NYPD will no longer allow revolvers as duty guns. It is unclear as to their use for backup. They estimate about 100 officers are still carrying BRT (Big Round Things) as their principal service handgun.
    Some reasons suggested for the change are:
    Need to issue carry ammo
    Armorers no longer familiar with the guns

    What do you think??
    "A man who has nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the existing of better men than himself."
    John Stuart Mill

  • #2
    The percentage of ROT (rounds on target) is so low among most LEO's that they probably figure a 17-round Glock is the least they need to issue to be effective.

    Comment


    • #3
      We’re at the point now with both technological development and complexity of critical incidents where the revolver is now obsolete for a primary duty gun. They can be fine backup guns or off-duty carry guns, but for primary duty, there should be no reason for people to still be using them. Revolvers have very limited ammo capacities, slow reload times, a very limited selection of ammunition that meets FBI BRF ballistics standards, poor accessorization (sights, lights, etc) options, and they are extremely complicated to work on when compared to semi-autos. When a revolver goes down, it’s usually a gunsmith level repair. The revolver armoring training is far more complex than that of most common duty semi-autos like Glock or Smith, and the repair process is a lot more involved.

      My agency is just shy of 900 sworn, and I think we have 4 or 5 officers (VERY senior officers) that still carry wheelguns as a primary duty gun. They are the last of the revolver era (as far as duty guns go), and no more officers will be authorized wheelguns for duty. We authorize them for backup guns and off-duty carry, but duty is basically done at this point.
      "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
      -John Adams


      Disclaimer: My statements are personal opinions, and in no way reflect those of my agency.

      Comment


      • #4
        I disagree about revolvers being done as carry guns hence one of my other posts. Aside from NY, I think most OIS cases involve less than 8 shots. There are 8 hot revolvers that are great. I still carry my 627 off duty. Was on duty but, they also by the haybius stopis to me carrying on duty. I drive a desk more than a car these days.

        I still believe that if the officer knows that they have a limited # of round to throw at a target they will use them judiciously and make them count. 8 shots is what most 1911s carry, one more in some cases. I am kinda surprised that Mayor Dufus isn't making them carry single shot TCs for duty instead of those nasty hi-capacity evil guns.
        Stupid has no color or race, everyone can participate.

        Comment


        • #5
          Revolvers are a very good choice for a service arm. Most quality built revolvers will require very little repair work over their service life. Given a choice, I’d carry a revolver over a semi auto for duty.

          Sad to see the revolver go.
          Getting shot hurts! Don't under estimate the power of live ammo. A .22LR can kill you! I personally feel that it's best to avoid being shot by any caliber. Your vest may stop the bullet, but you'll still get a nice bruise or other injury to remember the experience.

          Comment


          • #6
            The real benefits of semiauto pistols are the ergonomics - grip angle and shape, and low bore axis - and the shorter, lighter trigger pull. Even after all these years, it is still an incredibly rare event when an officer goes into slide lock. 15+ rounds is nice to have, but not a real necessity.

            I never bought into the "we're outgunned by the crooks" argument. What matters is shot placement and speed. The first one to put well-placed rounds in the other guy wins.

            That said, if we had a choice, I still would've picked a fine piece of combat Tupperware, probably with a high-capacity magazine, either a Glock or M&P.
            Last edited by ateamer; 12-03-2017, 02:09 PM.
            Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. - Ronald Reagan

            I don't think It'll happen in the US because we don't trust our government. We are a country of skeptics, raised by skeptics, founded by skeptics. - Amaroq

            Comment


            • #7
              1st shot on target wins.
              Stupid has no color or race, everyone can participate.

              Comment


              • Reedo
                Reedo commented
                Editing a comment
                Until it takes 17 shots on target to put the target down...then the first shot is sort of arbitrary. I think it was a Texas DPS trooper found that one out a couple years ago with a .45ACP.

                That also does nothing to speak to mindset, because if you as the cop get hit first, by that logic you are screwed. I hope you aren’t teaching that to recruits.

            • #8
              I started with a revolver, and moved to a Semi-Auto. At the Academy, I trained folks armed with Semi-Autos, and those with revolvers (different branches). When a semi went down, usually the shooter could fix it in 10 seconds or less. In the other cases, it took a minute or two. When a revolver stopped, it was a gunsmith job.

              Ht probabilities and qualification scores were always higher with semis - always.

              And today, who wants to take on 3-4 gang members or terrorists with a 6 or even 8 shot revolver? Your 'patrol rifle' may still be in your car.
              "A man who has nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the existing of better men than himself."
              John Stuart Mill

              Comment


              • #9
                You have access to two different firearms of comparable quality. Gun #1 is a S&W 8-shot .357 magnum with 22-rounds to reload (moonclips and 6 loops). Gun #2 is a Glock 17, a 9mm pistol with 17+1 capacity and 51-rounds to reload (3 spare magazines) . You are informed that you will be involved in an unknown circumstances fight during your next shift. You don't know how many assailants, or how they will be armed. Which firearm do you select?

                The idea that the "average" OIS is less than eight rounds ignores those shootings that run a 15+ round capacity magazine, or more. I would rather equip myself with the best tools possible for any fight, as opposed to adequate tools for the average fight. Your mileage may vary, and one of the best street cops I know carries a wheelgun. He is supremely competent, and I would not want to go against him with his chosen sidearm. That said, would he be better prepared for a wider range of eventualities with a higher capacity semi-auto? All things being equal, I argue that rounds in the gun equals time in the fight.

                Consider the case of Officer Jared Reston with JAX Sheriff, who was in a clinch trying to wrestle an 18-year-old shoplifter into custody when he was shot in the face with a .45 ACP. A gun battle ensued, lasting about 5-seconds, in which Reston was shot seven times. The suspect fire 12 shots from a Glock 21, while Reston returned fire with a 15-shot Glock 22. Reston fired 14 shots, including three close contact head shots that ended the fight. Where would he have been with a 6-shot revolver, or even an 8-shot semiauto? He would have been left trying to reload while still taking fire. Instead, the capacity of his Glock 22 allowed him to stay in the fight, scoring body shots that slowed his would be killers onslaught.

                As far as the NYPD, an agency with 30,000+ cops only has 100 carrying revolvers. It seems the cops have decided to retire the revolver, and the policy announcement just makes it official. Now if someone will tell them that 12 lbs triggers are causing more problems than they solve...
                "A fanatic is one who won't change his mind, and won't change the subject." -Winston Churchill

                "I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts." -Will Rogers

                "To desire to save these wolves in society may arise from benevolence, but it must be the benevolence of a child or a fool" -Henry Fielding

                Comment


                • HI629
                  HI629 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  If I “knew” that I would be getting into a gun fight that day, I’d bring extra officers and be carrying my patrol rifle. Eff the sidearm!

              • #10
                Well said, Bighead.
                The 'average' shootout consists of many, many 1 or 2 round fights, and a few with double digit round counts. Which will yours be? Are you willing to bet your life, your partners' life, and innocents lives on your answer?
                "A man who has nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the existing of better men than himself."
                John Stuart Mill

                Comment


                • #11
                  Originally posted by Sleuth View Post
                  I started with a revolver, and moved to a Semi-Auto. At the Academy, I trained folks armed with Semi-Autos, and those with revolvers (different branches). When a semi went down, usually the shooter could fix it in 10 seconds or less. In the other cases, it took a minute or two. When a revolver stopped, it was a gunsmith job.

                  Ht probabilities and qualification scores were always higher with semis - always.

                  And today, who wants to take on 3-4 gang members or terrorists with a 6 or even 8 shot revolver? Your 'patrol rifle' may still be in your car.
                  Sure, 2 shots for each. The second shot would just be for good measure.
                  Stupid has no color or race, everyone can participate.

                  Comment


                  • #12
                    They estimate about 100 officers are still carrying BRT (Big Round Things)
                    I was in NYC last September, working an event that had me teamed up with a couple of NYPD detectives. One day we drove past a uniform officer working traffic around 5th ave and 54 street. He had a wheel gun in a holster with no strap. I asked one of the detectives how many uniforms still carried revolvers and he estimated only 30 or so dinosaurs were left and to see one is a rare occurrence, akin to seeing a shooting star or an eagle fly above.
                    There are some things which cannot be learned quickly, and time, which is all we have, must be paid heavily for their acquiring. They are the very simplest things and because it takes a man's life to know them the little that each man gets from life is very costly and the only heritage he has to leave.

                    -Ernest Hemingway

                    Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.

                    -Abraham Lincoln

                    Don't. Don't believe. Don't believe the hype.

                    -Flava Flav

                    Comment


                    • BNWS
                      BNWS commented
                      Editing a comment
                      The NYPD revolver holster has a strap/spring woven into the holster for retention. You push your revolver down into the holster, when the cylinder passes the strap/spring it snaps the gun into place and locks it in. To remove it you have to twist and pull. . In the below link you can see the stitching near the top of the holster.

                      https://i.pinimg.com/originals/48/c8...5d55a7717b.jpg

                  • #13
                    IAM RAND, I hope you are good a shot under pressure as you say. Oh yes, what about the 4th or 5th terrorist/gang banger?

                    That is the difference between city folk and those of us who live out in the country! Meteors (Shooting Stars) are common in the night sky all year (we live way out in the country), and Eagles flying around here is not noteworthy.

                    These are not the only benefits of living away from city lights. (Like my 500 yard range on my property.)
                    Last edited by Sleuth; 12-10-2017, 05:52 PM.
                    "A man who has nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the existing of better men than himself."
                    John Stuart Mill

                    Comment


                    • #14
                      Of the shootings involving "Terrorists" where a beat cop/cops have engaged them what are the number of shots fired by the officers? I am not one of those that believe that any one gun is the best. I would like to think that any gun I can pick up I can shoot it well enough to save my life and the lives of those that I protect. THANKFULLY I have never had to shoot my weapon in the line. I have started to take a couple of pounds of the trigger before but, was lucky enough that it did not end in a shooting. I think only someone that has been there would be able to answer your question about being able to shoot well when under pressure. I have gone through training that simulates stressful situations.

                      Unless something has changed over time and it may have, the last I heard the 357 still was at the top for one shot stops. That that for what you will.
                      Stupid has no color or race, everyone can participate.

                      Comment

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