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  • #31
    The majority of my investigative case load consists of officer involved shootings and I can say that I have never worked a shooting where the officer utilized an optic equipped handgun. With that being said, I've also never investigated an incident where I felt that a pistol optic would have improved the situation any... if that helps.

    Having used optic equipped pistols on the range, I'll say this: they're surprisingly different. My personal experience has been that sight acquisition is completely different. When using optics on pistol platforms that I'm familiar with, I find that when presenting the gun to obtain a proper sight picture, muscle memory has me place the weapon at a location that is too high to immediately find the dot in the optic. This is, of course, due to the fact that the optic is placed higher above the bore access than iron sights typically set. The takeaway- anyone coming from a traditional iron sight equipped handgun should really spend quite a bit of time behind the gun on the range before sticking it in the holster and going 10-8. So the overall cost of the project should also include additional ammunition and training time for each officer.

    From a practicality/maintenance standpoint. Most handgun platforms will require that the factory sights be replaced with suppressor height sights if co-witnessing iron sights is of importance. Otherwise, the iron sights will usually sit below the floor of the optic and be rendered, essentially useless. My opinion is that a backup is always important. Most of the popular pistol optics run off batteries (although there are certain models, with their own downsides, that do not require batteries... at least within the Trijicon RMR lineup). So, if your batteries fail and you are not running suppressor height iron sights along WITH the optic, you really have no sights to utilize. Most say, however, that replacing the batteries in your Trijicon RMR every year should be sufficient, however. It's just something else to worry about remembering to do.

    All in all, they're cool, popular, and have benefits but I don't know that, by my estimation, the perceived cons would really make it worth the transition. Especially at about $750 per pistol (on top of the pistol cost).... for reference, that's figured at about $100 for slide milling/Glock MOS price difference, ~$100 for suppressor height sights, and~$550 for a Trijicon RMR.
    Criminal Investigator (with patrol experience)
    IAI Certified Crime Scene Investigator
    FAA Certified (Part 107) Remote Pilot
    Agency UAS Program Manager

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    • #32
      There have been several OIS’s now with RDS pistols throughout the country. I understand that Aaron Cowan, Chuck Haggard and Steve Fisher, among other trainers, have spoken directly to cops involved in OIS’s with a pistol RDS. While I can’t put myself into a position to say whether their situation was made better or worse by the RDS, I can say that having used a rifle in combat with both irons and an optic, I will take an optic any day of the week. Maintaining a target-focus has significant advantage over a sight-focus methodology, which is what is needed for using iron sights. Yes, we’ve made it hundreds of years with iron sights, but that doesn’t mean that it’s still always going to be the best method. Situation and shooter will always dictate the efficacy of something on a subjective level. The pistol RDS is a subjective component at this point, and should be evaluated on the individual basis. For some of us, the juice is worth the squeeze.
      "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
      -John Adams


      Disclaimer: My statements are personal opinions, and in no way reflect those of my agency.

      Comment


      • #33
        I have an RMR 06 type 2 on a Glock 34 that I have been experimenting with since the end of the summer. (My gun has the slide milled and is not the MOS version)

        A bunch of local agencies have just recently allowed RDS sights as an option.

        So far, I have found the RDS easier to use in dim light and it makes it easier to shoot accurately at distance. When shooting drills I have not yet noticed I was any faster on target.

        I think the RDS is probably the wave of the future.

        I'm taking a class with Modern Samurai Project in May that focuses on the use of the RDS equipped pistol.


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        • #34
          Bump.

          Can anyone here confirm the set-up of G17, RMR, Ameriglo GL-581 (***specifically***) fitting into a Safariland 6360RDS holster?

          This needs to work the first time and Safariland CS isn't/can't answer me specifically.
          If by chance an honest man like yourself should make enemies, then they would become my enemies.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by TheTick View Post
            Bump.

            Can anyone here confirm the set-up of G17, RMR, Ameriglo GL-581 (***specifically***) fitting into a Safariland 6360RDS holster?

            This needs to work the first time and Safariland CS isn't/can't answer me specifically.
            Yes, it will fit. Guaranteed. A buddy of mine is running that exact setup.
            "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
            -John Adams


            Disclaimer: My statements are personal opinions, and in no way reflect those of my agency.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Reedo View Post

              Yes, it will fit. Guaranteed. A buddy of mine is running that exact setup.
              ****... forgot to specify G17MOS.

              It's hard to get a straight answer these days. Safariland would only commit to suppressor-height sights fitting but not the GL-581s because they are even taller due to MOS making the RMR ride a little higher thus requiring slightly higher sights.

              Is your buddy running a G17MOS with the GL-581? Getting the slide milled is a non-starter... MOS or bust for us.
              If by chance an honest man like yourself should make enemies, then they would become my enemies.

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              • #37
                He has a Gen4 G17MOS.

                I run a Gen4 G17MOS also, but with the Trijicon suppressor height night sights. Those are 0.365”, and I have clearance above the sights. The GL-581 are 0.350” high.
                Last edited by Reedo; 02-07-2019, 10:34 PM.
                "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
                -John Adams


                Disclaimer: My statements are personal opinions, and in no way reflect those of my agency.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Cool... thanks man. Maybe that's the information I need also: What height sight is needed to co-witness with an RMR on top of MOS models?

                  When we demo'ed the guns, the Ameriglo blacked out rear with orange circle/ glow dot on the front post was universally favored.

                  Sorry for my ignorance. We've been issued P229 DA/SA since before I got hired 16 years ago, so this is a pretty big change coming and I'm tasked with getting to go as smoothly as possible.
                  If by chance an honest man like yourself should make enemies, then they would become my enemies.

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                  • #39
                    Basically all suppressor height sights work. The only differentiation you’re going to get is where those sights will sit in the optic window. So basically, where the cowitness is. Pretty much everyone in my agency running a Glock MOS is using Trijicons. I am using the blacked-out night sights (front and rear) so that I don’t have anything bright competing for attention in the window of the optic besides the illumination. It’s just my personal preference. My Trijicons are at about the lower 1/3 level of the optic window or slightly higher.



                    9D68ADF2-25DB-43F1-AFC9-97C9D7CA9AC0.jpeg

                    I think there are only about 4 companies with suppressor height night sights for Glocks. Trijicon, AmeriGlo, Tru-Glo and XS. AmeriGlo is really the only one making really high suppressor night sights at up to 0.395” or something like that. I’m sure that is what Safariland was thinking about when they wouldn’t give you a guarantee of fitment.
                    "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
                    -John Adams


                    Disclaimer: My statements are personal opinions, and in no way reflect those of my agency.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Civ perspective: As others mentioned, iron sights are still the most widely accepted method of pistol training. Adding anything to the gun (Optics, lights, etc) increases the amount of time you need to dedicate to training with it. It also increases the probability that something can malfunction or go wrong in a high-stress situation. Adding an RMR to your EDC won't make you (or anyone else) an expert marksman, that takes hours/days/weeks of dedicated training with the pistol in your desired carry configuration. If everyone in the department is already proficient with iron sights, and is on board with putting in the time to train and learn a new system, I'd say go for it.

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                      • #41
                        Well, they are coming. That is inevitable. I look forward to getting one eventually. I will have to get a second slide for my Glock 23 and probably update my holster but with how well they performed on my military M4 and my patrol rifle they can only be a good addition to my duty pistol. Along those lines, does anyone know if there is a red dot that doesn't require taller fixed sights?

                        Comment


                        • Levithane
                          Levithane commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Aimpoint ACRO (1.5-2year battery life) can be run without raised sights, although it is one of the ugliest optics I have ever seen. Trijicon has the RMR and SRO. SRO has a 3 year battery life and has the best FOV, but is a bit large for a handgun optic.

                        • Reedo
                          Reedo commented
                          Editing a comment
                          The ACRO requires suppressor height sights to cowitness the sights through the optic.

                      • #42
                        Originally posted by CO Blue_Knight View Post
                        ... Along those lines, does anyone know if there is a red dot that doesn't require taller fixed sights?
                        At the time of this post, I am aware of three optics that are designed to run with standard height sights:
                        Sig RomeoZero
                        Shield RMS
                        Holosun HS507K

                        Of those, the Holosun is the only one that is duty capable. The Holosun 507 series has tested very well for durability and reliability (much to my surprise indeed). I’m not sure if the 507K is on the same level as the standard 507, but I would assume it’s close.

                        Sig is trying, but they’re still coming up short. We have tested Sig optics extensively and they’re not duty grade. The durability is questionable, and the dot brightness is insufficient.

                        Shield RMS is hot garbage. The window pane is acrylic and will scratch if you touch it with anything. Seriously. I have a buddy who wiped one with a lens cloth and it looks like someone took a belt sander to it. The optic is also not durable and won’t survive very much impact. The auto illumination is also poor.
                        Last edited by Reedo; 02-13-2020, 10:33 PM.
                        "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
                        -John Adams


                        Disclaimer: My statements are personal opinions, and in no way reflect those of my agency.

                        Comment


                        • #43
                          We have been running a T&E process for pistol RDS for 2.5 years. Our findings are pretty similar to what Aaron Cowan has noted. The Trijicon RMR, Aimpoint ACRO and Holosun 507/508/509 series are the leaders in terms of durability and reliability. Only ones I would consider to be duty capable. We have additionally had one or two Leupold Delta Point Pros on the street, and to my knowledge they’ve been 100%. I know that Cowan has had poor results from their reliability, but we have not. Still, I would not personally run one.

                          Thus far the RDS have proven to be a huge benefit. Yes, there is a demonstrable learning curve- but it’s worth the added effort. The assertions of an increase in situational awareness and accuracy over iron sights are real. The situational awareness especially is a massive boost over iron sights. This is especially true in high stress/critical incidents, and I can assert this first-hand.
                          "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
                          -John Adams


                          Disclaimer: My statements are personal opinions, and in no way reflect those of my agency.

                          Comment


                          • #44
                            I am of the age that without reading glasses, I'm finding it is not as easy to get a good sight picture, if you can read between the lines there.

                            For the last several years of my career, I was just point-shooting out to the 15, and then just doing the best I could at the 25. I still shot well enough to pass the test for our SWAT teams.

                            Now that I'm retired, I'm wondering if a red dot sight would be easier for me to use. I really don't want to have to resort to a laser.

                            When I did the blue-label purchase of my retirement pistol, I had enough trouble with the white "U" on the stock Glock rear sight, that I had to black it out with a sharpie to get an acceptable sight picture. I ordered it without the M.O.S. option, so if I run a red dot on it, it would be on a dovetail mount where the stock rear sight goes. I don't care about losing the fixed sights, because of the issues I'm having with them anyways, and I don't care about the parallax issues of mounting a red dot this way.

                            So is a red dot easier for old eyes without reading glasses to pick up as compared to fixed sights, or not?
                            Last edited by Aidokea; 02-15-2020, 04:12 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Levithane
                              Levithane commented
                              Editing a comment
                              At night yes it would be easier to pick up, during the day probably not unless you have the red dot turned up on the highest setting. Have you replaced the stock fixed sights on your glock?

                            • Aidokea
                              Aidokea commented
                              Editing a comment
                              Are you under 40 years old? Go back and read the first sentence of my post. The problem is not the sights- the problem is my eyes.

                              I'd be interested in input on this from anyone who has to use reading glasses.

                            • Levithane
                              Levithane commented
                              Editing a comment
                              Chill, the reason I ask is because the stock glock sights are unanimously agreed on to be some of the worst sights on the market. Awhile back on the sig forums I came across posts who had an issue similar to yours (needing reading glasses), and they changed sights to something like trijicon or truglo. Didn't totally solve the issue, but it helped.

                              Just from personal experience with red dots, my father also wears reading glasses (used for reading on the computer, watching tv, reading menus, etc). I let him use my aimpoint comp M4, and he wasn't able to see clearly through optic with his glasses on. When he took his glasses off he could see much clearer through the optic. Granted thats a rifle optic, but if you get something like aimpoints new handgun optic you might have a similar problem like he has.

                            • Aidokea
                              Aidokea commented
                              Editing a comment
                              Yeah, I can see my Aimpoint's dot on my M4 just fine.

                          • #45
                            Originally posted by Aidokea View Post
                            I am of the age that without reading glasses, I'm finding it is not as easy to get a good sight picture, if you can read between the lines there.

                            For the last several years of my career, I was just point-shooting out to the 15, and then just doing the best I could at the 25. I still shot well enough to pass the test for our SWAT teams.

                            Now that I'm retired, I'm wondering if a red dot sight would be easier for me to use. I really don't want to have to resort to a laser.

                            When I did the blue-label purchase of my retirement pistol, I had enough trouble with the white "U" on the stock Glock rear sight, that I had to black it out with a sharpie to get an acceptable sight picture. I ordered it without the M.O.S. option, so if I run a red dot on it, it would be on a dovetail mount where the stock rear sight goes. I don't care about losing the fixed sights, because of the issues I'm having with them anyways, and I don't care about the parallax issues of mounting a red dot this way.

                            So is a red dot easier for old eyes without reading glasses to pick up as compared to fixed sights, or not?
                            Yes. The dot is bright and it doesn’t require a “sight focus” like with iron sights. Traditional irons require a three-plane sighting system. You have the rear sights, front sight and target/threat. You have to constantly transition between those three to assure they’re aligned, with most attention being put on the front. This constant transitioning of sighting plane plays hell with your eyes. I am supposed to wear glasses (I have them, but I don’t wear them because it’s not THAT bad...yet.), so I get where you are coming from. Having a red dot makes your life a lot easier because it causes your eyes to have to do a lot less work. You just look at the target and superimpose a bright red dot over it. You are not transitioning between numerous sighting planes, and essentially now only dealing with a single sight plane. We have put optics in the hands of older shooters at our agency, and they have all noted the ease of sighting and shooting with an RDS over irons.

                            I will say this- STAY AWAY FROM DOVETAIL RDS MOUNTS. They are not as durable or strong, and they can actually be ripped off the gun under stress. They are also able to be moved if struck from the side, regardless of the mounting method because they’re not actually fastened to the slide. As a result, any hard impact to the side can alter your zero. The one exception is the RCS Balor Mount.

                            The best option is to have your slide milled by a quality gunsmith. Several reputable companies direct mill for a specific optic, like ATEi, Vulcan Machine, Jaegerwerks and Agency Arms, among others. If you have a specific optic you want, they will make it fit.

                            Another great option is having your slide machined for an interchangeable plate system. Agency Arms has the AOS system, and Unity Tactical has the ATOM mount. Their ATOM 2.0, which is an upgraded setup, was just released at SHOT Show. Those systems allow your pistol to be machined to accept different optics with only the need to purchase and install an adapter plate for the specific optic. You don’t have to pigeonhole your slide to just one optic.

                            Another option is to buy a machined slide online (from a reputable company), or buy a Glock MOS slide. OR, buy a spare OE Glock slide and send that one in to be machined if you don’t want to machine the serial numbered slide. Buying a slide that’s already cut, or buying one and having it cut, will get close to the cost of a whole new blue label pistol.

                            Finally, you can just go buy another blue label Glock MOS pistol. I HIGHLY recommend the G45 9mm, by the way. The only thing you need to be aware of is that if you go with the Glock MOS, you need to use an aftermarket plate from either C&H Precision (CHPWS) or TangoDown.
                            Last edited by Reedo; 02-16-2020, 02:49 PM.
                            "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
                            -John Adams


                            Disclaimer: My statements are personal opinions, and in no way reflect those of my agency.

                            Comment

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