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  • Stopping Power

    Which bullit has the greater stopping power, a .357 magnum or a .45 caliber?

  • #2
    .45 has more stopping power.

    Think about it like this, the .45 ACP is moving at around 700 FPS and is a very large bullet. When you are shot with a bullet your body will ripple much like a pond you throw a pebble into, and just think about a bigger rock moving slower. It will make bigger ripples and distort your ability to function, or stopping power.

    .357 Magnum is a small bullet, (well not small but smaller then the .45 ACP) and being a Magnum its packed with a lot more powder. It will blow a hole right threw you were as a .45 ACP will get lodged in your body mass ideally. I have also heard but not really sure the accuracy of this statement but because the faster rounds (9mm, .40 Cal, .357) are moving so fast that they have less time to open up once they hit their target and mushroom out and cause such devastating damage as a .45 ACP Hollow Point.
    “Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway” (John Wayne)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Richard Miller
      Which bullit has the greater stopping power, a .357 magnum or a .45 caliber?
      Obviously how well a round performs is relative to shot placement, bullet construction, ballistics, etc. That being said, the .357mag, in it's "standard" 125gr HP load out performs the .45ACP in it's "standard" 230gr FMJ load on paper but modern .45ACP HP ammo comes close to it according to ballistic charts. Of course both rounds have a long "real world" history of being top notch manstoppers and the .357mag 125gr HP has long been the standard by which all other police calibers and loads have been measured due to its performance in the field, but on the other hand, I think it's safe to say that the .45 has claimed more lives due to the fact that it has been in continuous use by our military and others for almost 100 years.
      So, while that probably doesn't answer your question I hope it gives you an idea why you're going to get some answers that say .45 and some that say .357. Personally, I don't think you can go wrong carrying either caliber. And, for the record, I'm not partial to one or the other, I carry a .357sig.

      Comment


      • #4
        There is no magic bullet or caliber. Consider just some of the factors involved in stopping an attacker:
        Distance to the attacker
        His/her mental state
        His/her physical makeup
        His/her drug state
        clothing
        Intermediate barriers
        Point of impact
        Type of bullet
        Composition of bullet
        velocity
        expanded diameter
        depth of penetration
        etc., etc., etc.

        .22 Long rifle rounds have high lethality, but little stopping power. A thrown baseball can have lots of "stopping power", with little lethality.
        And what is a 'stop'? Does it mean they immediatly stop their attack? Can they resume their attack after an interval? How long an interval? Or do they stop all activity? Must they die for it to be a stop?

        In short, choose a firearm you can shoot well, get professional training, and work on shot placement before you worry about calibers and ""stopping power"".
        "A man who has nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the existing of better men than himself."
        John Stuart Mill

        Comment


        • #5
          Sleuth is dead on the money with his comments.

          As to stopping power...eh, stopping power is a burst to the chest and then another to the face. Doesn't matter what gun you are using as long as it's over .38 Special.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Richard Miller
            Which bullit has the greater stopping power, a .357 magnum or a .45 caliber?
            I have no experience of firearms thankfully but as far as I am concerned----both of them!

            Comment


            • #7
              the only true stopping power is measured by a shot to the cranial vault also called the t zone. This is the only shot placement to cause immediate death and a stop to all activities, breathing or otherwise. Have you ever shot a deer with a 1 oz 12 ga slug and blown its heart out and still had it run a couple hundred yards? A one ounce slug has more ft/lbs of energy exerted than a 9mm and a 45acp combined but the deer keeps on running. we need to get out of the "hollywood" mindset of what occurs during a shooting. the guy does not get blown back or spin around 7 times and fall to the ground dead. Propper shot placement is key. 6 shots to the chest may miss every vital organ in the body as seen in the trooper coats video. this was with a .357 mag and all center mass at that. every shot missed vital organs and arteries and one round went into the armpit of the officer punctured the aorta and caused severe internal hemmorage, and this was done with a very small cal. weapon. depending on the time of year and what suspects are wearing has more of an impact on what round to use for the job. A 45 acp jhp will clog when it strikes a thick coat and a few layers of clothing. causing the round to not open up and mushroom to full bloom. be wary of anyone that says any one round is the best because its whatever stops the threat at that moment that is the best. The 400 corbon is one wicked round but a miss with that is still a miss and a cranial vault shot with 32 cal is still a closed casket.

              Comment


              • #8
                What slueth said.
                "Well I'm here now, so deal with it."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Only guarenteed one shot stop is a 155mm.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Richard Miller
                    Which bullit has the greater stopping power, a .357 magnum or a .45 caliber?
                    Generally speaking , the caliber of choice for most is the .45ACP. In the early 1900's the military changed from the .45 long Colt to the .38. during the Phillipine insurrection, Army Officers armed with the .38 were routinely getting hacked up with Bolo knives by the Moros, after they had absorbed a chestful of .38's. In short order, the 1873 Colt .45's were brought out of storage and issued to the Officers. The .45 has served this country thru WW1, WW2, korea and Vietnam. The JCS are proposing a replacement for the current M-9, in .45ACP. The .45 is already deployed in the sand box, with good effect, and a marked improvement over the nato 9.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mike 842
                      Generally speaking , the caliber of choice for most is the .45ACP. In the early 1900's the military changed from the .45 long Colt to the .38. during the Phillipine insurrection, Army Officers armed with the .38 were routinely getting hacked up with Bolo knives by the Moros, after they had absorbed a chestful of .38's. In short order, the 1873 Colt .45's were brought out of storage and issued to the Officers. The .45 has served this country thru WW1, WW2, korea and Vietnam. The JCS are proposing a replacement for the current M-9, in .45ACP. The .45 is already deployed in the sand box, with good effect, and a marked improvement over the nato 9.

                      #1 The Phillipine warriors were on drugs. Their are numerous instances today of people on drugs soaking up buckshot rounds before they collapse.

                      #2 The ".38" round in question was not the .38 today. It was an earlier incarnation of the .38, not the .38 special. While not my first choice for going up against an enraged drugged out Moro tribesman (I'd prefer to be hiding behind a squadron of Knights Templar in full armor...while holding a M-14...with friends holding M-14's...with air cover...) a .38 Special DPX or Gold Dot would probably serve adaquately.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Mitchell_in_CT
                        #1 The Phillipine warriors were on drugs. Their are numerous instances today of people on drugs soaking up buckshot rounds before they collapse.

                        #2 The ".38" round in question was not the .38 today. It was an earlier incarnation of the .38, not the .38 special. While not my first choice for going up against an enraged drugged out Moro tribesman (I'd prefer to be hiding behind a squadron of Knights Templar in full armor...while holding a M-14...with friends holding M-14's...with air cover...) a .38 Special DPX or Gold Dot would probably serve adaquately.
                        00 buckshot has 9 or 12 pellets , depending on if it's a magnum or not, but they're .32 caliber in diameter. A .45 cal. fmj military spec bullet is 230 grains, weighing slightly over half a ounce vs your .38 at 125 or 158 gr. We're not talking high performance rounds, because Cor-bon and Gold dot and others make plus p loads for the .45 as well. We're talking about a half ounce bullet running about 850 feet per second,a very effective anti- personnel round, which is what is was designed for. FYI, some years back DOJ did a study and came to the conclusion that the 10mm was the ideal choice, ideal choice #2 was the .45 ACP, especially after the issues with the 1006 and the recoil, thats how the .40 was developed, a short 10mm. But to get back to the subject, the correct answer to the question is ".45"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Don't get caught up on this "stopping power" non-sense. It'll get you killed. Concentrate on shot placement. There is a reason we are taught body armor drills....

                          .38, .22, 9mm, 10mm, .40, .45 hell just about anything in the right spot will cause serious damage. As far as energy transfer, combine speed with weight and that will tell you how much energy transfer you'll have, but that alone does not necessarily equal greater "Stopping power".....

                          Only disruption of the spinal column/ceribal cortex is guarenteed to stop someone.

                          Center mass, spinal column shots in the upper chest/neck.

                          That is the way I train.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I was told that "stopping" a person can be accomplished by a sudden and massive drop in blood pressure (loses consiousness) or sever nerves that control the body, i.e. head shot, spinal column severed or damaged. It is physically IMPOSSIBLE to knock a person down with something that moves so fast and small that it travels through your body. I invite you to email your local college physics professor and ask them is a bullet fired from a handgun can knock someone down. It is just not possible.

                            Put your rounds in the chest, if that fails put one in the cranial vault. They will eventually fall. But it is not like TV. A deputy in a neighboring county was shot 5 times with a glock 21 (.45) caliber, ONCE IN THE FACE, three in the chest (had vest on) once in the leg which cause a wound to his thigh and calf, shattering his lower leg. He lived and killed the bad guy, returned to full duty a few months later. They both were on the ground facing each other, firing 15 feet apart. It's not like the movies, people may die from being shot, but they don't just fall down, that is crap. Ask any officer who has been in a shooting. Just keep putting them center mass.

                            If your intrested here is Deputy Neal's story below taken from http://www.usdsa.com/award/award.html

                            U.S.D.S.A. MEMBER RECOGNIZED BY
                            NATIONAL POLICE ORGANIZATION
                            Georgia deputy survives numerous
                            gunshot wounds in close range gun battle.
                            Cherokee County Sheriff's Office, Georgia



                            Cherokee County, Georgia Deputy and United States Deputy Sheriffs’ Association member Patrick Neal was recently honored as one of America’s “Top Cops” by the National Association of Police Organizations (NAPO) during the TOP COPS Awards ceremony held in October at the Lincoln Theatre in Washington, D.C. The awards are sponsored annually by NAPO, which represents over 260,000 sworn law enforcement officers through 2,000 police unions and associations nationwide.

                            The TOP COPS Awards pay tribute to law enforcement officers from across the country for outstanding service to their communities during the preceding year. The TOP COPS are nominated by fellow officers and selected from hundreds of nominations by an independent awards committee. Officers from the top ten cases were chosen as the 2005 NAPO TOP COPS. Deputy Neal’s case was honored as one of the top ten.

                            On August 10, 2004, Deputy Neal was assisting in a traffic stop when he heard on his radio that a wanted felon had been spotted in nearby Woodstock. The suspect had committed several violations of a restraining order placed against him by his ex-wife, and he had charges pending against him for stalking and robbery. As Neal pulled into a small cul-de-sac where the suspect lived, Neal saw the subject standing by the passenger side of his red truck. The suspect immediately ran to the driver’s side door, wrenched it open, and began rooting around in the cab. Deputy Neal parked in front of the suspect’s truck, got out, and began telling the suspect to leave the truck and move towards the patrol car. When the suspect did not respond and continued to search in the front of his cab, Neal drew his weapon and began moving around his car to get a clear view of what the suspect was doing. At that point, the suspect withdrew from the cab and opened fire on the deputy standing less than five feet away.

                            “He hit me in the chest and the face, knocking my glasses off making it difficult for me to see him clearly,” Neal told The Deputy Sheriff Magazine. “We continued to exchange gunfire with each other and he hit me once more in the chest and the leg and I shot him a couple of times as he retreated back behind the front door of his truck. I shot several rounds through his car door hitting him a couple more times. He then got up and began moving down the side of his truck away from me and I was moving towards the rear of my patrol car. We continued to shoot at each other and he hit me a fifth time, the third round in the chest. I hit him one more time after that. He finally fell to the ground and I moved around to the front of my patrol car and had to reload. I had fired 15 rounds by that time. He then leaned forward and tried to pick his pistol up. That’s when I shot him in the face and killed him.”

                            In total, Neal was hit five times – three times in the chest, once in the right thigh, and once in the face.
                            “The round that hit me in the face went through my left cheek, the back of my neck, and came out just above my shoulder blade. The other round penetrated my right thigh,” Neal said.

                            In addition to being recognized by NAPO for his extraordinary actions, Deputy Neal was also awarded the Citation of Bravery by the United States Deputy Sheriffs’ Association.

                            “Not only is Patrick Neal a first class law enforcement officer, he is also a first class individual. You do not have to be around Patrick very long to know what kind of a person he is,” said U.S.D.S.A. Deputy Director Jim Bob Conner (pictured far left) who made the trip to D.C. for the ceremony.

                            “Speaking for the U.S.D.S.A., we are very proud to have men and women like Patrick as members of our organization.”

                            Including Deputy Neal, 18 officers received awards as TOP COPS. 32 other officers representing 16 states received honorable mentions. Several television actors representing such network dramas as “Law & Order” and “Third Watch” served as award presenters. John Walsh of America’s Most Wanted was the Master of Ceremonies.



                            Nominations may be submitted via an U.S.D.S.A. Law Enforcement Recognition Program nomination form. The forms can be found in The Deputy Sheriff Magazine, upon request from the U.S.D.S.A. or through the link provided below. Self-nomination is permitted. As with all of the U.S.D.S.A.’s programs, there is no charge to nominate someone for an award, or to receive the award
                            "Anyone is capable of anything"

                            "I did absolutely nothing, and it was everything I thought it could be".

                            -Peter Gibbons
                            Office Space

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Good for the deputy.
                              But anacdotal 'evidence' is just that - a single instance which proves nothing (beyond the bravery and resolve of the Deputy, and the resolve of this bad guy).

                              I investigated a shooting which can prove either side:
                              Dislike the 9mm 147g JHP ? One shot dropped this guy like a box of rocks!
                              Like the round? We shot this guy in the head, dead center, and the round bounced off !
                              It's the same shooting (a very angled shot to the center of the forehead of a moving outlaw). Was it a ""one shot stop""? YES. Did the round bounce off ? Also YES.

                              Keep in mind, much of the discussion here involved the military use of the .45, BUT: in a full metal jacket, non-expanding round. My discussions with ER doctors reveals that, when someone who was shot comes in, they can not tell what he/she/it was shot with, until they find the bullet. There is no real comparison between a FMJ .45 round, and a modern Jacketed Hollow Point by a major ammo company.

                              I stand by my earlier post. learn to shoot, train, practice, get additional training. Your make/model/caliber/make of ammo/etc. etc. is all useless IF YOU MISS. A .22 in the eye is far, far more effective than a .500 S&W that misses.

                              Or, as the USMC says, "ONLY HITS COUNT".

                              My power floor is .38/9mm. Anything larger THAT YOU CAN HIT WITH is better.

                              [And the nice thing is that training is transferrable. Learn with a 9mm, practice with a .45 or .357, and you take the skill with you as you change guns.]
                              "A man who has nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the existing of better men than himself."
                              John Stuart Mill

                              Comment

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