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  • 3 Gun Matches

    Has anyone gotten involved in the various 3 gun matches around the US. If so whats the deal, good time or is it to "race gun" oriented.

    Also, does anyone know of any in the CT or MA area?
    FAILING TO TRAIN = TRAINING TO FAIL

  • #2
    Originally posted by eightyo
    Has anyone gotten involved in the various 3 gun matches around the US. If so whats the deal, good time or is it to "race gun" oriented.

    Also, does anyone know of any in the CT or MA area?
    Stick to IDPA affiliated matches, and you'll be alright. IPSC clubs are too "gamey" for my taste. I've shot pistol matches several times, and have really enjoyed them. I shoot them with my duty rig.
    J. Wise

    AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

    "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

    Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

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    • #3
      Don't listen to anyone's opinion on the IDPA v IPSC BS. Try them both and shoot what you like. A gun game is a gun game and the only real world relavance is shooting fast and accurately under some stress. If it's true that IPSC will get you killed then the IDPA will get you paralyzed from the neck down.

      I have shot several three gun matches from IPSC style to the so called tactical matches such as the old Soldier of Fortune 3 gun championships and they were all fun and all offered different types of shooting.

      Comment


      • #4
        My first pistol matches I ever shot were IPSC. They were fun, showed me how much I sucked when a timer was invovled, and introduced me to drawing and firing (this was all pre-Police days.) After a few times out, I started noticing that most folks were shooting 38 Supers with 28rd magazines, red-dot optics, compensators, and drawing from these tiny holsters that needed the gun to be tethered when waiting to shoot.

        I was told numerous times to ditch the cover shirt I was wearing (which was concealing my handgun and spare mag holder), and go with a lighter shooting ammo/recoil spring combination. I realized that those who were shooting 45 auto were shooting handloaded underpowered loads with light recoil springs.

        It got to be annoying and frustrating to see these guys using equipment that was so specialized to the "sport" that it had no transfer over to real-world defensive shooting. Then I found IDPA. WOW! These guys ALL shoot from concealment (some clubs are lax, but people won't make fun of you for it), use REAL holsters, shoot real guns (mostly stock), and for the most part have a tactical mindset. While there are rules for the game, the rules try to keep the "gaming" out of the courses and make the shooter work on sound tactics. One rule I learned was "never move from cover with an empty gun." I got docked time for violating this rule. This rule is obviously rooted in good tactics. No officer, when he has shot his weapon dry from behind cover, should leave the cover he is behind until he gets his weapon back up and running. I reloaded on the move, which saved me time in the 'game', but violated sound tactics.

        IPDA also has target priority rules, which teaches you to engage certain threats first, just as you would in the field. This keeps people from engaging the targets in a tactically un-sound way in order to get a better score.

        All in all, IDPA brings out people who want to get better at using their DEFENSIVE rigs, not just compete in a recreational sport. However, both clubs will let officers shoot with their duty rigs. It's just which environment you'd feel more comfortable in. If there wasn't an IDPA club around, but an IPSC club was local, I'd shoot IPSC. It's not THAT big a deal, but I DO prefer IDPA.
        J. Wise

        AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

        "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

        Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

        sigpic

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        • #5
          There is a lot of misinformation about IPSC out there. Race guns compete in the their own division and are scored sperately. Let's not all forget the reason there are red dot sights on todays rifles is because the red dots were designed, used, and refined by the IPSC crowd before the competing military shooters starting to take the idea back to the military. This is the venue where new ideas are tried and proven.

          Guys trying to shoot tactical in IPSC might get bugged by some dudes who disagree just like some cops who shoot IDPA may bet bugged by some CCW dudes with problems with authority. In my case I've been called a cheater at IDPA matches because I won the match with an IPSC background.

          The strengths of the IDPA can be low round count matches (for those who like that) that can be shot in a relatively shorter time span than some elaborate IPSC matches. The IDPA dosen't require any hard shots so it's not as intimidating to newer shooters and it does have a tactical type atmosphere.

          The weakness are is that the IDPA tells you how you will shoot a stage or solve a prorblem and frequently that involves some pretty un-tactical shooting and scenarios. I've shot some absolutley rediculas stages such as having to engage three targets one handed whiile walking toward them and holding a baby in my other arm. The tactical reload is another pet pieve of mine. Nothing like trying to stuff a magazine with one bullet left in it in a pocket in the middle of a shootout. The IDPA has had some serious infighting which has resulted in new rules banning a lot of expensive equipment that for years was legal. Some founding memebers have left and the local clubs near me have shut down.

          IPSC strengths are very challenging shooting and unless the stage is a "standard" they do not tell you how to shoot or solve a problem. The weaknesses are sometimes local matches are nothing but hosefests and the type of match is dependant on the club.

          Right now the IDPA dosen't have much to do with 3-gun matches so you may have to shoot USPSA by default.

          Comment


          • #6
            Good point on round count. I remember having to BORROW other shooter's magazines in order to have enough loaded rounds to shoot an IPSC course (47rd course!) I had 1911 mags stuck everywhere!

            IDPA assumes three mags, with 8rds each. This isn't ALWAYS true, but I can't remember ever not having enough ammo in my three mags on my duty belt.

            Just get out there and shoot! Find ANY local club, and get some trigger time.
            J. Wise

            AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

            "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

            Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

            sigpic

            Comment


            • #7
              3 gun matches are awesome. There are some great ones that go on here in Texas. Guys bring all kinds of gear and guns...good stuff, much more practical than the more "gamey" speed shooting mess.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by AggiePhil
                much more practical than the more "gamey" speed shooting mess.
                Explain please.


                I don't care what the premise of a pistol match is, if they're keeping score and ranking people's results it's a game!
                Last edited by JRT6; 06-16-2006, 03:46 PM.

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                • #9
                  Here you go:

                  http://www.cavalryarms.com/3gun/3gun.html

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                  • #10
                    I think what he's trying to say is that IDPA is generally recognized as having more training value than IPSC or other race-gun oriented sports, especially for police officers and CCW holders, because the shooter is looking at the same sights, squeezing the same trigger, carrying the same ammo load (for on-duty police, at least) that they carry every day. Granted, scenarios vary with the imagination of the designer, but they all involve being offered the opportunity to shoot, with your daily carry gun, multiple targets, some of which move. You're given repetitive practice in such things as cover, concealment, target selection, (ie: don't shoot the non-threats) tactical order, (ie: shoot the most dangerous threat first) and tactical movement, (cutting the pie) all of which will help you in a real encounter.

                    Now, this isn't to say that IPSC and USPSA don't offer training value. After all, trigger time is trigger time, but the best training is that which is closest to real life and, by that logic, training (or playing, whatever you want to call it) with your regular, daily carry gun, can only improve your skills with that gun. Training with a 1/2 lb triggered race gun and then showing up at the gunfight with your regular pistol...well...that just seems to defeat itself.

                    Just my opinion...but if you're looking to play, choose your sport based on the cool toys, the high-round counts, and the run-gun factor. If you're looking to further your defensive pistol skills, then choose IDPA. It's not perfect. Some scenarios are unusual and some folks still game it, but it's the best defensive pistol sport going at the moment.

                    Yeah, you can go to Blackwater, Thunder ranch, or various other training locations to receive "real" training, based on actual events and not sporting events, but for the price ($35 a year and about $15 per local match) how can you go wrong?

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                    • #11
                      Here's a taste of some 3 gun action. More of these pics can be found at http://www.cavalryarms.com.



                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by justbrowsing
                        I think what he's trying to say is that IDPA is generally recognized as having more training value than IPSC or other race-gun oriented sports, especially for police officers and CCW holders, because the shooter is looking at the same sights, squeezing the same trigger, carrying the same ammo load (for on-duty police, at least) that they carry every day. Granted, scenarios vary with the imagination of the designer, but they all involve being offered the opportunity to shoot, with your daily carry gun, multiple targets, some of which move. You're given repetitive practice in such things as cover, concealment, target selection, (ie: don't shoot the non-threats) tactical order, (ie: shoot the most dangerous threat first) and tactical movement, (cutting the pie) all of which will help you in a real encounter.

                        Now, this isn't to say that IPSC and USPSA don't offer training value. After all, trigger time is trigger time, but the best training is that which is closest to real life and, by that logic, training (or playing, whatever you want to call it) with your regular, daily carry gun, can only improve your skills with that gun. Training with a 1/2 lb triggered race gun and then showing up at the gunfight with your regular pistol...well...that just seems to defeat itself.

                        Just my opinion...but if you're looking to play, choose your sport based on the cool toys, the high-round counts, and the run-gun factor. If you're looking to further your defensive pistol skills, then choose IDPA. It's not perfect. Some scenarios are unusual and some folks still game it, but it's the best defensive pistol sport going at the moment.

                        Yeah, you can go to Blackwater, Thunder ranch, or various other training locations to receive "real" training, based on actual events and not sporting events, but for the price ($35 a year and about $15 per local match) how can you go wrong?
                        This is exactly what I was talking about when I said there was a lot of mis information about the USPSA out there. The USPSA has a production gun division, limited 10 and a single stack division. Obviously you can't use a "race gun" in those and in the production and single stack division what modifications are allowed to the guns are extremely limited. In the USPSA you can shoot a freestyle stage however you want where as in the IDPA you are told how to shoot the stage. In the USPSA you can wear a CCW or duty rig in any division you want to. Granted it would make it harder to win using a security holster but remember this is training and not gun gaming right? And don't think for a second there isn't "gaming" in the IDPA where shooters line their pants pockets with spacers so that it's easier to stick a magazine in during a so called tactical reload. Don'tr forget those caught making lightening cuts to the insides of the slides on their guns.

                        By the way the drop holster in the photo is not permitted in IDPA matches and that is a race gun rifle.


                        I will say it again and then I'm done. Gun games are games and the only thing they have of value is shooting fast and accurately under some competition stress. Other than that they are of very limited value and poorly represent the reality of defensive shooting. Stationary paper and steel targets that do not shoot back or in any react like a real adversary would. Remember that the next time you'er shooting the IDPA classifer stage where you're allowed to expose 50% of your body around a barricade while shooting at three targets (who in real life would be shooting back) at once without moving back behind cover between target engagements. Try that with simunitions and see how tactical it really is and what you're really teaching your1self to do in a real life reaction.

                        Ralph Morz recently had an article published about the realities of competition shooting and how in the end the USPSA and the IDPA really are the same.
                        Last edited by JRT6; 06-17-2006, 09:09 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Funny, I don't remember thinking for a second that there wasn't gaming in the IDPA, considering that I said "...and some folks still game it, but..." or did you miss that part?

                          I think it's pretty apparent to everyone that the targets don't shoot back, regardless of whether it's IDPA, USPSA, or IPSC. This falls under "common sense" as everyone knows we can't just go around shooting at each other to promote more realism. You know, that's why we draw the line at being sprayed or tased before carrying either device, but we don't expect to be told to take a .45 to the body armor before we're allowed to carry a pistol. I suppose simunition training is about the most valuable, but I don't know of an international simunition association yet, so I guess we're stuck going with the best reasonable option.

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                          • #14
                            We SHOULD have a simunititon sport... That would be great!
                            J. Wise

                            AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                            "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                            Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

                            sigpic

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by justbrowsing
                              Funny, I don't remember thinking for a second that there wasn't gaming in the IDPA, considering that I said "...and some folks still game it, but..." or did you miss that part?
                              I must of missed it, I couldn't get past the BS you wrote about IPSC being race gun only.


                              By the way gun games aren't training; your performance there is a chance to demonstrate your training. If it was training you would be shooting a stage over and over again with instruction rather than standing around for an hour to shoot a 30 second stage once.

                              Jwise,
                              I agree with you about a sims sport or organized training. Square range shooting really is only a part of shooting. I actually teach sims several times a year and when we get a scenerio going it's lot of fun and a profound expeirence for those who have never done it before but were accomplished range shooters. There is nothing like the rush of a target shooting back.
                              Last edited by JRT6; 06-18-2006, 09:33 PM.

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