6.8x43mm Remington SPC

[azchopshopcop]

Any thoughts on this "new" round for urban use???

[jeeper]

From what I've read and seen, I would say it makes HUGE sense for the military. For LE, however, I see it as an answer to an unasked question. As we are allowed expanding/frangible ammo for 5.56, I still think that is the supreme carbine caliber for LE. I haven't seen too much testing of the 6.8x43 for use in 'normal' American urban areas. I've seen alot of testing in mud, brick, thatched building material as is popular in those special places . It has shined in that testing and in real life use by .Mil guys overseas.

[Smokin Joe]

Tough to say with the limited availability of ammo these days.

I think when the supply meets the demand then you should look at it, but until then I would hold off of it (unless you have a very good inside source at remington ammo).

[azchopshopcop]

All good points, as usual, I have heard the typical argument on both sides of course. I just heard that the .223 is not cutting it, unless your varmint hunting.

I have heard that the M16 is failing too but, as with anything, real life R & D will force modifications and I am sure they will reinforce in order to accept that bigger round. I just hope our boys get what theyre aimin at before their rifle goes "tango-uniform" if you know what I mean.

[Smokin Joe]

The biggest problem with the 5.56 round is the M-4 barrel length at 14.5 inches it reduces the terminal ballistics to somewhere around 50 meters.

Out of a 20 inch M16A4 barrel the terminal ballistics are still around 250 meters.

Just to give you an idea of what the 5.56 terminal ballistics look like vs the 7.62 (.308)
M855

M193

7.62X51


I don't claim to be a ballistics expert by any means but someone with an impeccable resume gave me this info so take it for what its worth.

YMMV

[Smokin Joe]

Dude, it goes without saying that a .308 hits WAYYY harder than a 5.56mm. Your charts show that, plus a comparison of the old round for an M16A1 vs. the newer round (20yrs ago) designed for the M16A2.

True but the 5.56 in the charts provided produced tissue damage.

What does that have to do with the 6.8SPC?

I was addressing azchopshops comment of about the ineffectiveness of the 5.56.

[Smokin Joe]

Like I said I'm not a ballisitics guy....I'm just passing what little knowledge I have on.

M-16 Rifle (20" barrel) w/M193 ammo:
Longer barrel and faster, lighter bullet has higher MV
Will fragment and wound effectively out to 200m.
Will outpenetrate the M-4/M855 out to 100m. or more
Has longer sight radius which is generally conducive to better accuracy


M-4 Carbine (14.5" barrel) w/M855 ammo:
Slower round, shorter barrel = significantly reduced MV
Will not fragment and wound effectively beyond 75m. or so
Will not penetrate effectively as the M-16/M193
Has shorter sight radius and is almost always less accurate
Is now being fielded to units with inadequate marksmanship training and maintenance programs

My bad I short changed it by 25 meters and used "terminal ballistics" incorrectly.

[Sleuth]

Smokin Joe, nice quotes, but who are they from?

As to the original question, since the average police engagement range for snipers is under 100 yards, and for most shootings even less, I think the 5.56 will do with expanding bullets.

Besides, look at the cost savings as all those "tactical black" guys sell their barely used 5.56 rifles so they can be even more ""tactical"" with the 6.8!

[pkagel]

I won't debate the rounds against one another but as far as cost goes, the departments would just need to upgrade to new uppers, not new guns since both rounds can use the same lower receivers.

I really don't know why we'd be worrying about sniping with the AR anyway. What is wrong with the Remington 700 in .308 when it comes to sniping, it's worked good for years.

The .223 with a short barrell should be used for exactly what it is currently being used for CQB. It is not a long range sniping weapon so why try to make it into one.

Besides, look at the cost savings as all those "tactical black" guys sell their barely used 5.56 rifles so they can be even more ""tactical"" with the 6.8!

[6233108]

All I know is the price they are asking for these rifles is going to keep them OUT of many PD's as well as $$$ ammo when compared to 5.56.

[Smokin Joe]

Interesting GoGogadget,

I didn't come here to pick a fight nor to debt the topic. I really could give ****....truely...I don't care.

But I guess you have to agrue the point. I told you right off the bat that I wasn't a ballisitic guy. Secondly my source "Deep Throat" as you so like to insult him. Just retired out of one of the few Military entites that is the FORE GOING AUTHORITY when it comes to weapons and how effective they are at killing people. Not because he is a desk jokey who looks a stats all day but because up until last year he was killing bad guys in bad places. Now he works for a civilian company that runs some of the best LEO training in the world....maybe you've meet him?

I'm not going to diviluge my source...because to me this arguement doesn't really even need to happen but you think it does so from now on have a great one sided debate....because I DON'T CARE. I will trust my source over you any day of the week PERIOD!

Oh and do have a nice day.

[Smokin Joe]

I'll ask him to.

I'm not running and hiding. I am not educated enough in ballisitics to effective debate the issue with you.

And for clarification. My source thinks the M-4 is great for up close stuff however as a main battle rifle the thinks the M16A4 is the way to go. But everyone shot be shooting LeMas BMT....not M193.

[azchopshopcop]

Ow! my head hurts, stop it you two.....lol

[Sleuth]

With "patrol" rifles as with handguns, I stay with my basic ""BUllistics"" course:

Internal Ballistics: Who Cares
External Ballistics: See above
Terminal Ballistics: SHOT PLACEMENT, SHOT PLACEMENT, SHOT PLACEMENT

Any questions?

[badger]

With "patrol" rifles as with handguns, I stay with my basic ""BUllistics"" course:

Internal Ballistics: Who Cares
External Ballistics: See above
Terminal Ballistics: SHOT PLACEMENT, SHOT PLACEMENT, SHOT PLACEMENT

Any questions?

And continued SHOT PLACEMENT until the threat ceases to be present.