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  • txinvestigator2
    replied
    Originally posted by JRT6
    Without using conjecture, anctidotes, cliches, or suposition, prove that statement.
    It was a question. A question cannot be proved.

    And the reason for your decision was conjecture and suppostion.

    Leave a comment:


  • JRT6
    replied
    Originally posted by KenW.
    But if you have to poke more holes, where's the benefit?
    Without using conjecture, anctidotes, cliches, or suposition, prove that statement.
    Last edited by JRT6; 01-16-2005, 08:31 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • KenW.
    replied
    But if you have to poke more holes, where's the benefit?

    Leave a comment:


  • JRT6
    replied
    These arguments got old and tired a long time ago however I'll say this: You get in a shoot out with one or more adversaries who are moving and shooting back and your doing this while under incredible stress... Do you want a gun that holds a few hard recoiling bullets or do you want every flat shooting bullet you can stuff in your gun? If were talking the same amount of ammo then I would go with the bigger bullet in a full size auto(not sub compact) if the diference is eight .45's vs eighteen 9mm then make mine NINE!

    Leave a comment:


  • 1sgkelly
    replied
    Originally posted by GCPD0171
    Shot placement is the most important thing. With that in mind I would rather put a .45 in the right place than a 9mm.
    That's what I'm talking about; well said.

    Leave a comment:


  • GCPD0171
    replied
    Shot placement is the most important thing. With that in mind I would rather put a .45 in the right place than a 9mm.

    Leave a comment:


  • plnkownr87349
    replied
    .357 SIG.... CCI Gold Dot

    Leave a comment:


  • copwannabe310
    replied
    issue all officers with M4A1 carbines, ACOG 4x sights, 100 round C-Mags, and I garuntee you that the suspects will not resist =)

    Leave a comment:


  • tan/grn
    replied
    I would recommend everyone to go to tacticalforums.com for excellent info re caliber expansion/testing performed by ballistic expert Dr. Gary Roberts. He has shown with detailed graphs/pictures of gelatin testing exactly what various calibers will do. He also recommends various brand of ammo within each caliber.

    His important recommendation is to pick an excellent weapon system, robust ammunition and practice, practice, practice.

    Once on the site, go to Terminal Effects and do a search for 9mm ammo; the particular thread I am referring to should pop up if memory serves me right.

    My agency uses the Winchester 147gr Ranger Talon and has since 1989. This is one of the rounds Dr.
    Roberts highly recommends.

    Sorry for the lengthy post, but I believe the info is important enough to post. Hopefully, you will agree.

    **I did a recheck. Go to the Service Caliber thread in the Terminal Effects site. Excellent info. Many of the people that post here are experts in their fields (physics, wound ballistics, engineering, etc.) Some of it way over my head, but I try and others usually simplify it for people like me with limited scientific understanding.***
    Last edited by tan/grn; 01-12-2005, 02:20 AM.

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  • chinchilla
    replied
    Patrick - read the article Txinvestigator posted. In that instance the 9mm penetrated and hit an artery. Following that he went on to kill a few people before he bled to death. About 15 minutes later.

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  • KenW.
    replied
    I AM NOT AN AMMUNITION ENGINEER.

    THESE ARE MY PERSONEL VIEWS
    Expansion is designed to stop the bullet from overpenetrating. The "luxury" of expansion also leaves larger wound channel - traumatizes more flesh to cause shock and blood loss.

    A Sgt I once worked for was involved in a shooting where he got either 4 or 5 9mm hydrashocks (this was 15 years ago) into (through) the badguy. All rounds were recovered unexpanded from the upholstery of the chair he was seated in. Debris from his coat fouled the hollow point. BG got one round off: into the officer's face. He survived, BG did not. That department changed ammo when the crime lab report was done.

    Expanding bullets sure changed the hunting world. I couldn't imagine taking elk with FMJ. Overpenetration is not desireable. The high velocity and deep penetration of the 9mm causes it to be an unsure stopper in my book. Should the 9mm not expand you have a .355 hole (your math). Sould a .45 fail to expand, you have a .45 hole. When life-energy is leaking out of someone, I think the extra tenth of an inch may not seem much, but it IS in your favor.

    I would agree that, regardless of caliber, multiple controlled hits to key areas may be required. That being said, I'll still keep my .45ACP. Both the primary AND the BUG.
    Last edited by KenW.; 01-12-2005, 01:37 AM.

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  • 1sgkelly
    replied
    Pat .45 rules, thats it.

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  • Delta_V
    replied
    9MM may expand, .45 will not shrink
    So? Personally, I don't see what the big deal with expansion is. The most important thing with any round is that it penetrats deep enough into the body to destroy cardiovascular structures. Expansion is pretty much a luxury. Plus, no matter the caliber, rounds just can't be counted on to expand once in the body. There are way too many variables. Also, there are rounds out there that expand so much (mainly low weight, high velocity rounds) that they don't penetrate as deep as they have to. Either that or they fragment, again not achieving adequate penetration.

    Plus, just do the math. A 9mm round is .355" in diameter. How much difference is less than 1/10 of an inch going to make?

    Leave a comment:


  • 1sgkelly
    replied
    .45

    9MM may expand, .45 will not shrink

    Leave a comment:


  • txinvestigator2
    replied
    Originally posted by chinchilla
    Was it the FBI that had a problem with the Silver Tip 9s in Florida? I think it was a heart hit, but it took the guy 15 minutes or so to bleed out. Maybe Im remembering it wrong.

    Something odd: Ive heard some departments that issue/allow .45s are going back to the ball ammo as for some reason in this caliber it performs more consistently than the JHPs which dont seem to want to expand.
    In Miami. The BG did not take a heart hit, but I believe it was an aorta. I know it was a major artery.

    Fascinating reading on the subject here
    http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

    a quote "At autopsy, Platt
    Last edited by txinvestigator2; 01-10-2005, 08:07 PM.

    Leave a comment:

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