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.45 or 9mm? Vote!

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  • #16
    I AM NOT AN AMMUNITION ENGINEER.

    THESE ARE MY PERSONEL VIEWS
    Expansion is designed to stop the bullet from overpenetrating. The "luxury" of expansion also leaves larger wound channel - traumatizes more flesh to cause shock and blood loss.

    A Sgt I once worked for was involved in a shooting where he got either 4 or 5 9mm hydrashocks (this was 15 years ago) into (through) the badguy. All rounds were recovered unexpanded from the upholstery of the chair he was seated in. Debris from his coat fouled the hollow point. BG got one round off: into the officer's face. He survived, BG did not. That department changed ammo when the crime lab report was done.

    Expanding bullets sure changed the hunting world. I couldn't imagine taking elk with FMJ. Overpenetration is not desireable. The high velocity and deep penetration of the 9mm causes it to be an unsure stopper in my book. Should the 9mm not expand you have a .355 hole (your math). Sould a .45 fail to expand, you have a .45 hole. When life-energy is leaking out of someone, I think the extra tenth of an inch may not seem much, but it IS in your favor.

    I would agree that, regardless of caliber, multiple controlled hits to key areas may be required. That being said, I'll still keep my .45ACP. Both the primary AND the BUG.
    Last edited by KenW.; 01-12-2005, 12:37 AM.
    I am concerned for the security of our great Nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within.

    Douglas MacArthur

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    • #17
      Patrick - read the article Txinvestigator posted. In that instance the 9mm penetrated and hit an artery. Following that he went on to kill a few people before he bled to death. About 15 minutes later.
      Im currently ignoring ghostsix, Khalid72 & wcucj

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      • #18
        I would recommend everyone to go to tacticalforums.com for excellent info re caliber expansion/testing performed by ballistic expert Dr. Gary Roberts. He has shown with detailed graphs/pictures of gelatin testing exactly what various calibers will do. He also recommends various brand of ammo within each caliber.

        His important recommendation is to pick an excellent weapon system, robust ammunition and practice, practice, practice.

        Once on the site, go to Terminal Effects and do a search for 9mm ammo; the particular thread I am referring to should pop up if memory serves me right.

        My agency uses the Winchester 147gr Ranger Talon and has since 1989. This is one of the rounds Dr.
        Roberts highly recommends.

        Sorry for the lengthy post, but I believe the info is important enough to post. Hopefully, you will agree.

        **I did a recheck. Go to the Service Caliber thread in the Terminal Effects site. Excellent info. Many of the people that post here are experts in their fields (physics, wound ballistics, engineering, etc.) Some of it way over my head, but I try and others usually simplify it for people like me with limited scientific understanding.***
        Last edited by tan/grn; 01-12-2005, 01:20 AM.

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        • #19
          issue all officers with M4A1 carbines, ACOG 4x sights, 100 round C-Mags, and I garuntee you that the suspects will not resist =)

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          • #20
            .357 SIG.... CCI Gold Dot

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            • #21
              Shot placement is the most important thing. With that in mind I would rather put a .45 in the right place than a 9mm.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by GCPD0171
                Shot placement is the most important thing. With that in mind I would rather put a .45 in the right place than a 9mm.
                That's what I'm talking about; well said.
                Kelly

                We are the thin blue line
                between you
                and all the money in the world.

                And no you can't have any.

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                • #23
                  These arguments got old and tired a long time ago however I'll say this: You get in a shoot out with one or more adversaries who are moving and shooting back and your doing this while under incredible stress... Do you want a gun that holds a few hard recoiling bullets or do you want every flat shooting bullet you can stuff in your gun? If were talking the same amount of ammo then I would go with the bigger bullet in a full size auto(not sub compact) if the diference is eight .45's vs eighteen 9mm then make mine NINE!

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                  • #24
                    But if you have to poke more holes, where's the benefit?
                    I am concerned for the security of our great Nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within.

                    Douglas MacArthur

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by KenW.
                      But if you have to poke more holes, where's the benefit?
                      Without using conjecture, anctidotes, cliches, or suposition, prove that statement.
                      Last edited by JRT6; 01-16-2005, 07:31 AM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by JRT6
                        Without using conjecture, anctidotes, cliches, or suposition, prove that statement.
                        It was a question. A question cannot be proved.

                        And the reason for your decision was conjecture and suppostion.

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                        • #27
                          Where is it scientificaly proven that you have to hit a BG with more 9mm bullets than .45's to cause incapcitation or death when using modern HP ammo?

                          "conjecture, anctidotes, cliches, or suposition," means proof other than "I hear this" or "so and so says that" or "a 9mm may expand but a .45 will never shrink".
                          Last edited by JRT6; 01-16-2005, 07:21 PM.

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                          • #28
                            If a 9mm works better with modern ammo, then so will a .45.

                            I'm growing weary of this. Let's try something new. Rather than me proving myself right, how about someone disprove me?
                            Last edited by KenW.; 01-16-2005, 08:14 PM.
                            I am concerned for the security of our great Nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within.

                            Douglas MacArthur

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Take a shot the right lung with a 9mm and shot to the left with a .45 and then see it you can tell the diference.

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                              • #30
                                Well now, That's not very friendly, is it? Obviously, I'd prefer not to be shot with either, that's why I wear a vest at work.

                                All I know is what our testers decided on. My department
                                Last edited by KenW.; 01-17-2005, 11:06 AM.
                                I am concerned for the security of our great Nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within.

                                Douglas MacArthur

                                Comment

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