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  • Gun Day at the Academy Need Advice!!!

    It's almost Gun Day at the NYPD Academy (only 1 more week) and I have to choose between the Glock 19, the Sig P229, and a 9mm S&W (all 9mm). I've heard good and bad things about all three weapons. I'm thinking about going with the Glock, but I've heard horror stories about "Phase 3 Malfunctions." Does anybody have a Glock 19 and can vouch for it's reliability? Are the new Glocks free of this malfunction? Alot of the cops say the S&W is the most reliable, yet heavy weapon, but I've never really heard much about S&W's. Whatever input anyone would like to offer would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

    Joe

  • #2
    guns

    I carry a sig 229 and I love it. my buddy carries a glock 19 and has never had a problem. He shoots a couple hundered rounds a month. I would never own a S&W semi auto. I like the sig, but that first shot is something you got to get used to. The glock is the same everyshot. That might be your best bet. Whatever you use, practice is the key.
    Got Skill??

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    • #3
      I was just wondering why are you so against the S&W?

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      • #4
        Originally posted by JosERW
        I was just wondering why are you so against the S&W?
        My Dad's S&W 4506 kept jamming back when he was a reserve for Palm Springs PD. It jammed more often than not. Stovepipes, feeding, constantly jamming. It wasn't just his gun, others were having issues too. The rangemaster tried to fix his gun 3 times, before telling him to take it home and just use it as a paperweight like it was intended.

        He swears by his Sig P220. It is perfect and troublefree, and he's the 2nd owner. It's got about 15 years on it and I can count the times I've seen it jam on one ha... make it one finger. I've only seen it jam once. We were both surprised when it did, too.

        Anyway, I loved his Sig so much that I went out and bought myself a new one to carry. They are definitely worth the extra cost. This is one place you definitely don't want to go cheap. Your life may depend on it. I've had my new P220 for 2 years and it hasn't jammed on me one time yet.

        If you can try them out first, do it... If you can't try it there, go to a range and rent. Yes, the DA first trigger pull on the Sigs can be weird for some. So try it. The Glock is also a fine choice, although it's usually only comfortable for people with smaller hands, from what I've seen and heard.

        We love our Sigs, as do most officers out here. It's always between Sig, Glock and H&K... But never S&W included in that fine lineup. Smith and Wesson makes a good revolver, if not one of the best. Their semi-auto pistols; not so good.
        "We ask, we tell... Then we make."

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        • #5
          I have to disagree about the S&W autos. I carried a S&W 6906 and then a 4006 for years. I NEVER had a problem with either of them.As far as safety is concerned, the S&W is the only one with a magazine disconnect safety. That means that the gun will not fire without a magazine in the well, even if there is a round in the chamber. That being said, I switched to a Glock 22 about a year ago, and It's the lightest, most accurate auto I've used. If you can, try them all out, and use the one that's best for you. They are ALL good weapons.
          Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice. Barry Goldwater

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          • #6
            It seems that the "Phase 3" malfunction is mostly encountered in the NYPD. I personally have never seen this happen to any Glock, so Im wondering if it has something to do with the NY or NY+ trigger.

            Smith & Wesson? They make good revolvers. Im less enamoured with their autopistols. They seem to break a lot (the older/smaller 9mm anways, the 4006s seemed to hold up very well).

            Sig 229 in 9mm? What a waste. That same gun in .40 or .357 would be a better bet. Aside from 1 229 that someone had hard chromed by his evil twin skippy, Ive never seen 1 malfunction with the gun.


            Id probably go for the Sig first, and then it would be a very hard toss up between the Smith and the Glock. However, Id still take the Glock over the S&W.

            I have to disagree re: magazine disconnect safetys. I consider them to make the gun LESS safe. I want the gun to function every time I pull the trigger. I dont want to have to worry about whether or not the magazine is seated properly or even present. The first thing I have done to autos with this "feature" is have it removed. If you need to rely on a mag disconnect as a safety, you are not safe with a firearm.
            Last edited by chinchilla; 07-29-2004, 11:47 AM.
            Im currently ignoring ghostsix, Khalid72 & wcucj

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            • #7
              I too have not seen any of the phase three malfunctions. I love my Sig 229. I have nothing against glocks, they just aren't for me. You wouldn't go wrong with either one.

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              • #8
                In response to the magazine safety feature, I work under the assumption that every encounter I have at work is an armed encounter: I bring the weapon. If someone had grabbed my gun, and I was wrestling around for it, my intention was to pop the magazine and let them have the pistol. Without the magazine, it is useless to them. I carry a back-up, and would use it as appropriate. I agree with the statement that I want the gun to function every time I pull the trigger. I don't, however, want it to function every time someone else pulls the trigger. As far as disconnecting or altering any handgun beyond factory conditions, unless you're a certified gunsmith, you're asking for trouble. You are truly not safe with an altered firearm.
                Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice. Barry Goldwater

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                • #9
                  Just to confuse the issue, my agency issued the S&W 6906 and 6946 (DAO). I was the lead firearms instructor at the academy, and we had very, very few malfunctions, even with in-service guns that had zero lube on them.

                  My choices: 1. SIG, 2. S&W, 4. Grock (they just don't feel good to me).

                  The best advice: Find out if you will have a chance to shoot all three. If not, find a range and rent all three. If you cannot, base your decision on which of the 3 feels the best to you. Then practice, practice, practice.

                  As a practical matter, few (if any) of these guns fail on the street!
                  Last edited by Sleuth; 07-29-2004, 02:23 PM.
                  "A man who has nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the existing of better men than himself."
                  John Stuart Mill

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                  • #10
                    I personally own all 3 types of these firearms for personal use. I love the sigs, no question about it. But I have never had a single problem with any of my Glocks. That said I do carry a Glock 22. I have a S&W 4006, I have only had one problem with it in all the years I've had it. I however do not like the magazine disconector safety. If I'm in the middle of a tactical reload, I like the fact that I still have one round that can be fired. There is no way though that I would ever remove that saftey though. Removing any safety feature on a gun is just asking for trouble if you ever go to court for a shooting. The subjects attorney will have a field day with you for removing a safety feature. Will he win because of it, maybe, maybe not. But its certainly not worth the risk.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by keith758
                      In response to the magazine safety feature, I work under the assumption that every encounter I have at work is an armed encounter: I bring the weapon. If someone had grabbed my gun, and I was wrestling around for it, my intention was to pop the magazine and let them have the pistol. Without the magazine, it is useless to them.
                      The problem is, the suspect can drop your magazine for you in a struggle too. It's a two way street. Lets say you are in a life or death struggle for your gun, but you end up breaking free... Just in time to realize that your gun won't fire because the magazine catch was pushed just enough to engage the 'unsaftety' feature. You didn't notice it in the moment, you were too busy saying "holy crap he's trying to get my gun from me!" Do you have time to process the "why won't my gun fire?" thought AND push it back in now during the split second it takes for him to bring HIS gun up at you and pull the trigger?

                      I agree with chinchilla. Another problem with extra safety mechanisms: they are just another moving part that can malfunction. I hate the grip safety and the magazine safety. Semi-autos have enough moving parts as it is that can fail in the wrong place at the wrong time. And we're talking about a S&W semi-auto here as it is.
                      "We ask, we tell... Then we make."

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                      • #12
                        Thanks guys and no, they don't let you shoot any of the weapons. You just get to feel them out. As for the Sig in 9mm, yeah all the NYPD weapons are required to be 9mm. I was thinking about going with the Glock 19 because it is light, accurate from what I've heard and I'm planning on making my BUG a Glock 26 so it can share the same magazines.
                        Most of the NYPD guys say they would want the S&W because they find it to be the most reliable and I've even heard people say that the Sig has a tendency to rust (but's thats probably because these people don't clean them). Anyway, I'm thinking about going with the Glock. Does anybody have any experience with a 9mm Glock or do all your Dept's use larger calibre?
                        Thanks!

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                        • #13
                          For a very brief time I carried a 19. It was a 2nd gen model that was previously a rental. I had zero problems with it (granted I actually cleaned/lubed it & kept dust bunnies from forming colonies in it).

                          One nice thing about the Glock is that their armorers course is simple.

                          That reminds me, the one problem Ive seen with the 19 (and 17) is that after a lot of rounds, the frame will crack at the ejection port, or in the rounded portion under the barrel that the guide rod goes into. Neither one was render the gun inoperable, just need to replace the slide before going out again.


                          FWIW: I had the mag safetys removed from a pair of Hi-Powers by a very competent gunsmith.
                          Im currently ignoring ghostsix, Khalid72 & wcucj

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                          • #14
                            first off i own all three brands: a Sig 210, Sig 225, Sig 229, Glock 22, S&W 5946, S&W 3953.

                            for all out accuracy and just a very well made gun the Sig 229 gets it hands down. i wouldn't want to carry it as my duty gun though because it's still not that light and the finish will rust if you don't take good care of it, i'm not about to start wiping down my duty gun after every tour.

                            the S&W 5946 is my old duty gun (we got G22's this month). it weighs a ton and mine had a tendancy to stovepipe, granted the mags were old. it is a pretty accurate gun that will last forever but it sucks to carry every day.

                            the Glock 22 is my duty gun and i love it, i'm not as accurate with it as i am with my Sigs but i haven't fired nearly enough rounds to get used to it. it's so easy to maintain and it's not too bad to have on my waist all day like the S&W was.

                            get the glock.
                            -Sean

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                            • #15
                              Thanks for your input!

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