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  • City dumps "faulty" Glocks for Sigs.

    I am not a Glock fan but they make good guns. This sounds fishy.

    http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2013/ma...nts_id=2565778

    When Knoxville Police Chief David Rausch announced in late January that the department would no longer use the .40-caliber Glock pistol that officers have carried since 2002, he didn’t mention any problems with the gun.

    Rausch said the replacement gun, a .45-caliber Sig Sauer, had more stopping power than the .40-calibers. Testing among officers also revealed they were more accurate using the Sig Sauer, he said.

    The chief said the switch was a sound financial decision because the life of a Glock was four years, while the Sig Sauer was good for 10 years. Although the Sig Sauer gun cost nearly twice as much as the Glock version, Rausch said the transition was a wise move.

    City documents, however, indicate other factors were at work — reasons Rausch did not address at that news conference.

    A letter from the city to Glock states that triggers were freezing on the guns after they were given to officers and lock pins that hold the 34 parts of the gun together were failing.

    KPD today won’t discuss the gun switch.

    The city’s claims of faulty weapons surprised Glock, which supplies more than 72 percent of all law enforcement agencies in the nation with guns. A representative said no other department has reported problems with the weapon.

    A poll of other departments using the .40-caliber Glock revealed no other agency has encountered problems with the gun as alleged by KPD.

    KPD spokesman Darrell DeBusk refused to say why the alleged performance problems were withheld from the public.

    “We’re not going to discuss the issues with the Glocks,” he said. “I’ll have to refer you to (Deputy Law Department Director) Ron Mills with any questions about the Glocks.”

    The Police Department is obtaining 225 of Sig Sauer’s .45-caliber P220R pistols, a dozen 1911 Sig Sauer handguns and training for 10 officers as armorers. In exchange, the Police Department is giving $13,500 cash, 630 .40-caliber Glocks, 53 12-gauge shotguns, four .22-caliber rifles, 14 submachine guns, six 37mm launchers, various gun parts and 300,000 rounds of new ammunition.

    Faulty firepower?

    Rausch did note performance concerns about the Glocks in an email Jan. 18 to individual members of Knoxville City Council.

    Because Rausch sent the email to individual members of council and not to the council as a whole, the email was not included in the meeting packet disseminated to members of council and the media. The email was not made part of the official record of the council meeting.

    The News Sentinel obtained the email Feb. 20 from the Police Department. In the email, Rausch told council members the Glock handgun “is replaced about every three years.”

    Rausch explained in his email the benefits of a more powerful weapon and the differences in how a Glock and a Sig Sauer operate. And he explained why his department began seeking another weapon.

    “In a shipment of what is now called the Next gen Glock, we received 10 weapons that would not fire properly new out of the box,” Rausch wrote.

    “This started our process of looking at alternatives as we cannot have our officers with weapons that may or may not function when they need them.”

    A News Sentinel article from January about KPD’s transition from the Glock caught the attention of law enforcement administrators across the nation. Administrators were concerned about Rausch’s statement that the Glock’s service life is four years.

    That statement prompted a wave of phone calls to Glock headquarters in Smyrna, Ga., from police agencies wondering about the life of their weapons, according to Carlos Guevara, vice president and general counsel for Glock USA.

    “When a large metropolitan police department makes that kind of statement, it carried some weight,” Guevara said.

    Guevara said Glock officials assured law enforcement agencies that “the gun will continue to work after five years.”

    Maker seeks answers

    Guevara on Jan. 28 sent a letter to Knoxville Mayor Madeline Rogero complaining about Rausch’s “false and misleading information” disseminated to the public.

    “The primary issue for us was the service life of the weapon,” Guevara said last week in an interview. “That was something we wanted to clarify. We warrant the piece for much longer.”

    Guevara’s letter prompted a response Feb. 4 from Mills, the deputy law director, who stated the four-year service life figure came from Glock’s local representative. The local Glock representative is Craig’s Firearm Supply Police Distributors, 8761 Chapman Highway.

    “If the information is incorrect, your problem lies somewhere other than with the Knoxville Police Department,” Mills wrote.

    Mills also outlined in the letter performance issues with the .40-caliber Glock.

    “Over the past two years, KPD has experienced repeated problems with locking pins breaking or falling out of these weapons, and four brand new handguns were found to have extremely stiff triggers,” Mills wrote.

    “After firing, these weapons froze up completely and could not be fired. All told, at least thirteen new GLOCK weapons out of approximately forty issued to KPD officers over the past two years failed shortly after issuance.”

    Mills wrote that a Police Department trainer saw a locking pin break on a Glock used by an officer from another agency at KPD’s firing range.

    “This is information that was not provided to the media, but could have been,” Mills wrote.

    ‘No further statements’

    DeBusk said there is no documentation of the alleged Glock performance issues raised by Rausch and Mills.

    “All the conversations were over the phone or in person to make them aware of the issues, so there’s no written correspondence,” he said.

    Asked if the locking pin and trigger freeze issues were discussed with other officers in the department to alert them of potential problems, DeBusk refused to respond.

    Mills responded last week to a list of questions submitted regarding the Glocks and why the performance issues were kept from the public.

    “We have had a full and fair opportunity to share our concerns and issues related to our experience with representatives from Glock,” Mills wrote in an email.

    “We have agreed that the best course of action for both parties is to discontinue any further airing of concerns or grievances. Consequently, the City will be making no further statements or comments on this matter.”

    Mills said he has spoken to a Glock representative by telephone since his Feb. 4 letter, but he declined to divulge details of the discussion.

    Glock’s Guevara said his company was never informed of problems noted by the Police Department.

    “This was news to us,” Guevara said.

    Guevara said that if a department has a problem, a law enforcement risk manager is dispatched to correct any issues.

    “We send a company representative to the agency to find out about the problem. But we didn’t get that opportunity,” he said.

    In addition, Guevara said people at Craig’s Firearm Supply Police Distributor denied making any statements about the three- or four-year service life of the .40-caliber Glock. A representative of Craig’s Firearm Supply Police Distributor referred questions to the Glock national office.

    The Gen4 Glock, Guevara said, has been on the market since late 2009.

    “We don’t have any other agencies reporting this problem,” Guevara said. “Unless it’s reported, there’s no way to go looking for what happened.”

    Departments: no objections

    Public information officers for the Blount County Sheriff’s Office and the Metropolitan Nashville Police Department, both of which use the .40-caliber Glock, reported no performance issues with the weapons.

    Bob Bossey, executive director of the International Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors, based in New Hampshire, said his organization represents 13,000 instructors in law enforcement, the military and corrections.

    “We haven’t had anybody bring that to our attention.” Bossey said of performance issues alleged by the Police Department.

    “There’s a lot of Glocks out there. They’re a good, quality weapon.”

    The executive director of the Tennessee Sheriffs’ Association, Terry Ashe, said he’s “not heard any complaint about the Glocks.”

    Ashe said he would be alarmed if he experienced the failure rate noted by the Police Department.

    “We’d be flagging it and sending out emails if that was the case,” he said.

    The Knox County Sheriff’s Office has been using the .40-caliber Glock since 2008 and has had no problems, according to Chief Robert Spangler, who oversees the agency’s training division. Spangler said he’s never been told of a service life for the firearms.

    The Police Department’s decision to switch to another gun manufacturer, Spangler said, is no different from one agency using the Chevrolet Caprice while another organization opts for the Dodge Charger.

    “It’s a personal choice and as long as the public is served, what does it matter?” he said.

    “I’ve been partial to the Glock because it’s always done what we wanted it to do,” Spangler said.

    “The thought of any officer pulling out a weapon and it malfunctions, that’s my worst nightmare. You want to give the officers tools they need to get home safely.”

  • #2
    Something stinks with this story... I have had a Glock 22 for almost 20 years. Shoots as good now as it did when new. I have over 5,000 rounds through it.
    My comments are my personal opinion and are based on my life experiences and training. They are not to be construed as legal advice in any form as I am not an attorney. Should you act on any of the information I provide in my comments, you do so at your own risk!!

    Comment


    • #3
      Total BS. According to their chief (if he really said it) Glock is only good for four years.

      “Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.”

      Miyamoto Musashi

      “Life Is Hard, But It's Harder When You're Stupid”

      George V. Higgins (from The Friends of Eddie Coyle)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by chiefjack View Post
        Something stinks with this story... I have had a Glock 22 for almost 20 years. Shoots as good now as it did when new. I have over 5,000 rounds through it.
        Heck i agree!. I just retired my gen 1 G17 because the frame cracked thursday, i myself swapped to a Sig 229 on friday.

        However, although my glock exploded........i will add......I've had this gun since i was 15 years old. I am now 27. I am also a GSSF competitor and i used that weapon for competition for the last 9 years. and my father used it many years in competition before i did, between work, training, range days and comps.... It broke right around the 175,000 round mark. And this is a 2 pin model which is supposedly "weaker" than the new gen 3 and 4 three pin models.

        My weapons frame cracked above the trigger housing right where all of the force from the recoil smashes into the block.....mind you this weapon was purchased 2 years after i was born......

        So for this guy to say the service life of a glock is 4 years........hogwash.

        All i ever replaced in mine was the firing pin, pin spring, recoil spring and mag springs. Thats it. $25 worth of stuff every 5 years or so.

        Glock makes a darn good weapon. Then again so does sig. But this guy is off his rocker.
        Last edited by broken_baton; 03-03-2013, 09:49 PM. Reason: typos

        Comment


        • #5
          ..................
          Last edited by joemama1; 11-01-2020, 09:42 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            While I have never been a fan of Glock pistols, they are very well made.

            Even if there were some issues after 5000-10000 rounds, then you simply replace the recoil springs and some of the other worn parts....much cheaper than starting over with a different pistol which requires a different skill set and manual of arms to learn.
            The posts on this forum by this poster are of his personal opinion, and his personal opinion alone

            "Politicians are like diapers. They need to be changed often and for the same reason"

            "We fight not for glory; nor for wealth; nor honor, but only and alone we fight for freedom, which no good man surrenders but with his life"

            Comment


            • #7
              Couldn't help but chuckle while reading the article. Wonder what the real reason for switching was? Chief likes the 220 better, but was in a contract with Glock maybe?
              In Valor there is hope

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by SCSU74 View Post
                Couldn't help but chuckle while reading the article. Wonder what the real reason for switching was? Chief likes the 220 better, but was in a contract with Glock maybe?
                I remember about 6 or so years ago , i was working for a low end patrol company, and our Regional Manager started bashing beretta left and right, because he was a S&W fan and wanted to switch to the 5906. he claimed that berettas jammed every few rounds. Even though the beretta is designed with a wide ejection port specifically to prevent feed jamming :/

                Some people.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Yeah, this sounds completely off. Assembly pins backing out? They seem to be the only agency, in the COUNTRY, that has had this problem. At least, that has been reported.

                  Weird.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by broken_baton View Post
                    Heck i agree!. I just retired my gen 1 G17 because the frame cracked thursday, i myself swapped to a Sig 229 on friday.

                    However, although my glock exploded........i will add......I've had this gun since i was 15 years old. I am now 27. I am also a GSSF competitor and i used that weapon for competition for the last 9 years. and my father used it many years in competition before i did, between work, training, range days and comps.... It broke right around the 175,000 round mark. And this is a 2 pin model which is supposedly "weaker" than the new gen 3 and 4 three pin models.

                    My weapons frame cracked above the trigger housing right where all of the force from the recoil smashes into the block.....mind you this weapon was purchased 2 years after i was born......

                    So for this guy to say the service life of a glock is 4 years........hogwash.

                    All i ever replaced in mine was the firing pin, pin spring, recoil spring and mag springs. Thats it. $25 worth of stuff every 5 years or so.

                    Glock makes a darn good weapon. Then again so does sig. But this guy is off his rocker.
                    Sounds like you might have had a faulty frame even. Some of the very first Glocks are still around and still going near a million rounds I'm told. It should last as long as you live pretty much.

                    Four year service life is BS. Even special ops guys who shoot probably between 10,000 and 50,000 a year don't go through weapons that fast. Simply keep it lubed, replace worn components, and you're good to go.

                    In addition to this, I've not been impressed with Sig as of late. Customer service is reprehensible, they are using lower grades of steel, and their triggers are terrible. I had a Sig 229 and it caused me nothing but problems. I sold it, got a S&W M&P45 and couldn't be happier...well, maybe with an HK45, but that's a little too heavy on the bank account
                    "If the police have to come get you, they're bringing an @$$ kicking with them!"
                    -Chris Rock

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by GangGreen712 View Post
                      Sounds like you might have had a faulty frame even. Some of the very first Glocks are still around and still going near a million rounds I'm told. It should last as long as you live pretty much.

                      Four year service life is BS. Even special ops guys who shoot probably between 10,000 and 50,000 a year don't go through weapons that fast. Simply keep it lubed, replace worn components, and you're good to go.

                      In addition to this, I've not been impressed with Sig as of late. Customer service is reprehensible, they are using lower grades of steel, and their triggers are terrible. I had a Sig 229 and it caused me nothing but problems. I sold it, got a S&W M&P45 and couldn't be happier...well, maybe with an HK45, but that's a little too heavy on the bank account
                      yeah i contacted glock, they are sending me a shipping label and have said they will replace the frame free of charge. But still 175k is not bad IMO, i've had guns fault well before that, around 10 sometimes.

                      The issue with sig is generally a new one.

                      Remember in the past few years how Kimber started to decline? and was producing junk? Well sad to say that the guy who ran the production at kimber......now works in Exeter NH running the sig plant *face palm* So anything that was produced in the last 2 years is gonna have the same reliability issues that kimber has had for the last 4.

                      However my 229 has the serial number prefix AM 1X XXX. Meaning its probably 2000-2005 model, mags are stamped 9/14/1994, but the grip pannels have a date of november 03. and i got to speak to the officer in person who traded it in , he told me it had under 2k through her and has been to the armorer regularly for routine maint *hence the great condition when i bought it* So i feel i should be alright in that dept. Its the older style with the almost stippled grips and no accessory rail. But as of late i would not buy a NEW sig any day of the week.
                      Last edited by broken_baton; 03-04-2013, 12:37 AM. Reason: dated it wrong.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I have a G 23 (Gen 3) that has well over 50,000 rounds through it, some of which were under extremely harsh conditions. Other than replacing the springs and performing the manufacturer suggested maintenance, I've had nothing special done to the pistol. Only failed to fire a few times, which was determined to be ammunition issues. Other than that, one of the most reliable pistols I've ever owned.
                        Getting shot hurts! Don't under estimate the power of live ammo. A .22LR can kill you! I personally feel that it's best to avoid being shot by any caliber. Your vest may stop the bullet, but you'll still get a nice bruise or other injury to remember the experience.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by HI629 View Post
                          I have a G 23 (Gen 3) that has well over 50,000 rounds through it, some of which were under extremely harsh conditions. Other than replacing the springs and performing the manufacturer suggested maintenance, I've had nothing special done to the pistol. Only failed to fire a few times, which was determined to be ammunition issues. Other than that, one of the most reliable pistols I've ever owned.
                          Same here, i have a 23, 23c , 19, 17, 22, 37, 38, 27 ,26.....all over 10k, all 3rd gen and older than 4 years. Never had an issue. Even with cheap cheap french ammo :-D

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I've had a lot of problems with my issued gen 3 G22 (FTF, stove pipping, etc), and my gen 4 at my old dept (mostly trigger) but Glock replaced it and got rid of the issues. Do I think Glocks are ugly, clunky, and can break just like any other gun? Yeah. Do I still trust it with my life? Heck yeah. While my M&P is still my favorite pistol, I didn't hesitate to get my fiancee a G26 when she asked. Oh, and I will never own another Sig, not because they aren't good guns, but because I personally don't like them.
                            Originally posted by Ceridwen
                            Just one would be stingy of me, I'd have to get two. For the children.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by dontknowwhy View Post
                              I've had a lot of problems with my issued gen 3 G22 (FTF, stove pipping, etc), and my gen 4 at my old dept (mostly trigger) but Glock replaced it and got rid of the issues. Do I think Glocks are ugly, clunky, and can break just like any other gun? Yeah. Do I still trust it with my life? Heck yeah. While my M&P is still my favorite pistol, I didn't hesitate to get my fiancee a G26 when she asked. Oh, and I will never own another Sig, not because they aren't good guns, but because I personally don't like them.
                              I hear ya, I bought my Fiancee a G21 SF :-D. I tried for a 19, but she and her 112lbs looked me dead in the eye and said "nah too weak"

                              Comment

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