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  • #76
    Originally posted by Nightshift va View Post
    The five seven was the same pistol that nutbag at Fort Hood used to shoot and kill all those people. You could do your research on that incident to determine it's effect.
    The same could be said about a .22

    See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Garrolini.e

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    • #77
      I think its Kel Tec that makes a VERY high capacity .22 mag. 30 rounds or something in a magazine?

      I think I'd consider that over the 5seven.
      Last edited by KenW.; 01-21-2012, 02:22 PM.
      I am concerned for the security of our great Nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within.

      Douglas MacArthur

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      • #78
        Holy horse**** batman.

        I go away for a week and this is what I come back to.

        I see a pile of anecdotal "evidence" from our analyst friend here. In fact, so much that I could only gloss it over. However I don't see any autopsy data on humans, or any deer or pigs wearing clothes.

        I also see lots of mixing of PS90 results with FiveSeven.

        Apples and oranges.

        You know, I am really done arguing on the topic. As I have always done, I urge the end-user to do their research and come to their own conclusions. Honestly if you are a paper pusher, then carry whatever you like. If you are on the pointy end of the spear it might be in your best interest to get off the internet and talk to some real people face to face. This is what I have done in my research on the topic. Unfortunately many times when I do this kind of research I am told things in confidence and I cannot cite sources. Warriors are generally very open to communicating things face to face when it won't be enshrined forever on the internet.
        "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
        8541tactical.com - Ammo Wallets

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        • #79
          Originally posted by KenW. View Post
          I think its Kel Tec that makes a VERY high capacity .22 mag. 30 rounds or something in a magazine?

          I think I'd consider that over the 5seven.
          The PMR-30, and it is nearly 3/4 less expensive than a Five-Seven Pistol.
          Eat Meat, Build Mass!

          www.centralfloridaammo.com

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          • #80
            Our Tactical Unit is authorized to carry them.
            "Rollin and Patrollin the Wild Wild West of Bham"

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            • #81
              Yeah holly crap with the posts. There seem to be 2 sides here:

              1) Pro 5.7
              - Those of us that have used and seen firsthand what it can

              2) Anti 5.7
              - Will do whatever they can do to attempt to disprove it and pull up stuff from the internet or what their cousin of a friend told them. Have never fired, or even handled one. Shooting at paper doesn't count, an air soft BB can make holes too.

              The Kel-Tec PMR 30s have the fit, finish and plastic characteristics of a Dollar Store squirt gun. Rimfire semi-autos have a hard time functioning reliably. They are cheap because they are built so. Kel-Tec still can't get them right and they can't fill the orders for them because they have to go back to the blueprints because of defects.

              Find me a .22 caliber round designed 80 years ago that can go through both sides of a level IIIA vest like it is made out of warm butter. I know 5.7 works and am not going to try and change the heart and minds of those against. Like I posted earlier it has a specific purpose and it is damn good at fulfilling it.
              "When they kick out your front door, how you gonna come? With your hands on your head, or on the trigger of your gun. When the law break in, how you gonna go? Shot down on the pavement, or waiting in death row." - President Barack Obama

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              • #82
                Ch***, why do you think you will need to "go through both sides of a level IIIA vest"?
                Are the bad guys in your area wearing level IIIA vests ?
                "A man who has nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the existing of better men than himself."
                John Stuart Mill

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                • #83
                  Ok i scrolled back and saw quiet a few threads that answered your question from game to the FORT HOOD debacle. For handgun calibers for defense I'll stick to quality ammo and: 9mm. 357magnum. 38spl..45acp and 40 s&w..the only reason I didn't mention 10mm is unfortunately i don't own one, but it's an awesome caliber. here is the link for that Kel-Tec: http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/pistols/pmr-30/
                  "Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. The MARINES don't have that problem." ....Ronald Reagan

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Chazz View Post
                    Yeah holly crap with the posts. There seem to be 2 sides here:

                    1) Pro 5.7
                    - Those of us that have used and seen firsthand what it can

                    2) Anti 5.7
                    - Will do whatever they can do to attempt to disprove it and pull up stuff from the internet or what their cousin of a friend told them. Have never fired, or even handled one. Shooting at paper doesn't count, an air soft BB can make holes too.

                    The Kel-Tec PMR 30s have the fit, finish and plastic characteristics of a Dollar Store squirt gun. Rimfire semi-autos have a hard time functioning reliably. They are cheap because they are built so. Kel-Tec still can't get them right and they can't fill the orders for them because they have to go back to the blueprints because of defects.

                    Find me a .22 caliber round designed 80 years ago that can go through both sides of a level IIIA vest like it is made out of warm butter. I know 5.7 works and am not going to try and change the heart and minds of those against. Like I posted earlier it has a specific purpose and it is damn good at fulfilling it.
                    The only difference in the 5.7 is the projectile, thus the 5.56 should do it MORE BETTER actually, and the 22 hornet would do it too with that bullet, or the 218 Bee.

                    Thus the 5.7 is just another .224 center fire smokeless powder cartridge, loaded with a bullet good at penetrating kevlar, wanna bet Eugene Stoner had something similar on the table when he worked with the early AR designs ??

                    And 99.99% of the time the target that a defensive HANDGUN (again stop mixing P90 crap into the discussion) neutralizes is NOT wearing IIIA body armor...so a heavy bullet that punches a decent sized hole clear through has been working for as long as handguns existed...and if they ARE wearing IIIA armor that 1/10 of a percent of the time, you shoot them in the face a couple times and then move on to other things.

                    Bill
                    Just pay your dues, and be quiet :-)

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                    • #85
                      And in those 99.9% of cases, you are engaging a target NOT wearing IIIA body armor...and thus the 80 year old cartridges on the table that NEVER got a rep as dino killers give us the real world experience to say the 5.7 is not going to be either.

                      If you had read all the hype on the 220 swift, and the 17 remington, and the 5.56 when that came along you would recognize it this time.

                      When the 5.56 was first fielded they claimed a VC was shot in the FOOT or ARM and it was a fatal wound because the round buzz sawed up into his torso like something from the movie PHantasm.
                      Just pay your dues, and be quiet :-)

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                      • #86
                        Yeah and 99% of the time: your gun will not jam, there will be only one shooter, your target won't be behind cover, and your lunch break won't get interrupted by an active shooter. That is why a proficient LEO trains for that 1%

                        Anyone can buy IIIA armor off the internet and have it shipped to their front door, no questions asked.

                        Until people are done posting "this round could do that or this when loaded a certain way" I am done here.

                        Willbird: Find us some real numbers on those rounds. How many wet phone books it goes through doesn't count
                        "When they kick out your front door, how you gonna come? With your hands on your head, or on the trigger of your gun. When the law break in, how you gonna go? Shot down on the pavement, or waiting in death row." - President Barack Obama

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Actually, Willbird, the early versions of the M16 had a different twist rate barrel (I don't have the time to look up the first twist used) and did produce some spectacular wounds, because the bullets became unstable when they hit anything. But anything included twigs, heavy grass, etc., so when it was type classified, the twist rate for the M193 round (55g) was changed.
                          "A man who has nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the existing of better men than himself."
                          John Stuart Mill

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            This has all been quite interesting. I'm just glad the novel size posts have stopped. Honestly, who the hell is going to read all that. Besides, that guy was coming off as an FN zealot, not a guy trying to provide a rational argument for his point of view.

                            Of course, all this conversation doesn't fix the fact that the gun is just fugly.
                            Anything worth shooting is worth shooting 3 or 4 times.

                            M-11

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                            • #89
                              Ch***, what is it you do for a living?
                              "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
                              8541tactical.com - Ammo Wallets

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Chazz View Post
                                Yeah and 99% of the time: your gun will not jam, there will be only one shooter, your target won't be behind cover, and your lunch break won't get interrupted by an active shooter. That is why a proficient LEO trains for that 1%

                                Anyone can buy IIIA armor off the internet and have it shipped to their front door, no questions asked.

                                Until people are done posting "this round could do that or this when loaded a certain way" I am done here.

                                Willbird: Find us some real numbers on those rounds. How many wet phone books it goes through doesn't count
                                I do not have to come up with numbers, the 5.7 is a ballistic twin to a great many rounds that were in use and are in use over the last century. The ONLY difference is the bullet.

                                And I said 99.99% of the time not 99 ;-). And if the IIIA is readily avail, so is/will be one that will stop 5.7 dead too. That has been the deal since armor came along..somebody makes a can, and another guy makes a can opener, and then they make a better can, better opener, etc.

                                The early m16 had a slow twist that did marginally stabilize the bullet, this is true, but a shot that hits an arm/shoulder, and enters the abdomen then exits down at the hip is pure luck not design intent.
                                Just pay your dues, and be quiet :-)

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