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  • #61
    Originally posted by School Cop View Post
    Caveat: Non-military; just repeating what I was told.

    The way it was explained to me, and it may have been coming from someone's nether regions, is that it is more valuable on the battlefield to wound someone with a small caliber than kill them with a large one. That way, you take them out of the fight as well as 1-2 other guys that now have to pull the wounded man to safety. Makes sense, but very possibly BS.
    Many theories abound as to the intentions of military munitions used against the enemy. But take a look for yourself how SS190 functions against an armored target.




    That's a pretty bad case of heartburn.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by KenW. View Post
      If you get attacked by tha Jaffa you'll wish you had a P-90.

      Other than Hollywood, I don't think I'd have a use for the round. I already have a 22 mag.

      What good is a Five-seveN thread without the ubiquitous "22 mag" comment.


      For your info:

      In a pistol-to-pistol comparison, with 40-grain bullets, the 5.7x28mm EA loads achieve a muzzle velocity roughly 700 ft/s faster than the .22 Magnum.

      When 30-grain bullets are compared pistol-to-pistol, the 5.7x28mm EA loads achieve a muzzle velocity roughly 1000 ft/s faster than the .22 Magnum.

      In a pistol-to-pistol comparison, the 5.7x28mm EA loads produce about three times the muzzle energy of the .22 Magnum.

      http://www.gunblast.com/KelTec-PMR30-2.htm
      http://www.gunblast.com/FN-FiveseveN.htm


      The Five-seveN pistol still has more velocity/energy than the .22 Magnum even when the WMR is fired out of a 24in barrel. If we take into consideration bullet behavior, any comparison trying to be made between the two weapon systems starts to look silly. One behaves like an ice-pick, and the other a 5.56 NATO round.

      Out of the PS90, depending on the grain of .224 projectile used, we are talking about a velocity range of 3,000-3,400 fps, and energy range of 670-700 ft-lbs with either fragmenting, expanding, or tumbling rounds. Of course all will penetrate armor and some rolled steel.

      22mags are great for plinking at the range, but let's not get ahead of ourselves here. The 5.7x28mm platform is a legitimate self-defense option.



      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Penetrator View Post
        So in summary, shot placement is everything.

        The Five-seveN pistol firing a nearly inch-long, tumbling projectile at nearly 2,600fps and 405ft-lbs of energy (EA's 28gr S4M) is more than sufficient to stop a human threat.
        Prove that :-).

        Or is it that you have the opinion that it will ?? Has it ever been used on a human threat ??

        BTW I cannot WAIT until you start to cut/paste some LONGER posts ;-).

        BTW a 22 hornet rifle made in the 1930's will make neat holes in steel plate like that, and also suck at cleanly killing anything bigger than a woodchuck ;-).
        Last edited by willbird; 01-19-2012, 12:49 PM.
        Just pay your dues, and be quiet :-)

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by willbird View Post
          SO much hype out there seeks to blend the 5.7 pistol with the P90 results, and the two things are separate.

          From what I can see velocity and penetration from the pistol is around 66% of what the P90 does.

          Some of the hype (from people selling custom ammo) claims that the 5.7 pistol with some ammo rivals the M4 (but for some reason the pistol gets super duper ammo and the M4 does not ?? huh ?) , but the same attention to the projectile should give the M4 a huge advantage over the P90 and the 5.7 pistol with the exception of the 50 round mag (illegal in Ohio for civvies) that the P90 can use.
          So you are saying that the P90 with SS190 provides acceptable ballistics while the Five-seveN doesn't?

          Okay, the Five-seveN pistol with EA ammo has more velocity and thus energy than the P90 using SS190 - your problem is solved. Many law enforcement officers already use EA S4M as well as the restricted "DevastaTOR" round that will penetrate all the way to China. FNH factory ammo pales in comparison to EA ammo.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by willbird View Post
            Prove that :-).

            Or is it that you have the opinion that it will ?? Has it ever been used on a human threat ??

            BTW I cannot WAIT until you start to cut/paste some LONGER posts ;-).

            BTW a 22 hornet rifle made in the 1930's will make neat holes in steel plate like that, and also suck at cleanly killing anything bigger than a woodchuck ;-).
            I have many, many "cut/pastings" with documented shootings with the Five-seveN using rounds with much less power than S4M.

            Case in point: Fort Hood

            Hasan was using SS192 and SS197. Both of those rounds are less powerful than SS190 or SS190 and definitely most of the rounds that EA sells.

            Everyone that rushed the shooter (Hasan) was stopped dead in their tracks. Two died from chest wounds, another was disabled when he was shot in the pelvis. Nearly every person that was shot center mass died. Hasan was shot five times with 9mm and survived to stand trial.

            Per news reports, most of the wounded were shot in limbs and other non-vital areas of their bodies. A fatality rate of about 30% is average (or above-average) for handgun bullets. There is no reason to think the exact same results would not have been produced with a 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP pistol. See, for example:

            http://articles.cnn.com/2011-02-06/j...nt?_s=PM:CRIME

            Two men were arrested Sunday in connection with a shooting that left an Ohio university student dead and 11 other people wounded, police said.

            <snip>

            The shooting happened at a house where members of the Omega Psi Phi fraternity were holding a party, Hughes said.

            <snip>

            Authorities found multiple shell casings from two semiautomatic handguns, one a .40-caliber and the other a .45-caliber, Hughes said.



            Here are some detailed accounts of the gunshot wounds:


            Gunshot to Extremities- 14 total

            Sgt. Patrick Blue III, 23
            -single minor flesh wound caused by bullet fragment

            Staff Sgt. Chad Davis
            -single minor flesh wound to shoulder

            Staff Sgt. Eric Jackson, 39
            -single gunshot wound to upper forearm (shattered radius)

            Staff Sgt. Joy Clark, 27
            -single gunshot wound to forearm (shattered radius and ulna)

            Spc Grant Moxon, 23
            -single gunshot wound to thigh (hit while seated, bullet stuck above knee then traveled to upper thigh near hip)

            George Stratton III, 18
            -single gunshot wound to anterior left shoulder (fractured clavicle, coracoid, humerus)

            2nd Lt. Brandy Mason
            -single gunshot wound to left thigh (fractured femur)

            Cpl. Nathan Hewitt, 26
            -single gunshot wound through left calf
            -single graze to thigh

            Keara Bono Torkelson, 21
            -single gunshot wound to posterior left shoulder (minor, believed to be fragment from ricochet off floor per statement)
            -single graze to head (minor, believed to be from same bullet per statement)

            Pvt. Joey Foster, 21
            -single gunshot wound to posterior left buttocks (through buttocks/iliac spine)

            Sgt. Kimberly Munley, 34
            -single gunshot wound to left thigh
            -single gunshot wound to left knee (shattered)
            -single gunshot wound to right wrist

            Pvt Alan Carroll, 20
            -single gunshot through left tricep, tvl anterior-posterior, bullet continued grazing left chest posterior midline
            -single gunshot through right deltoid, tvl anterior-posterior
            -single gunshot through left vastus lateralis, tvl anterior-posterior

            Maj. Randy Royer
            -single gunshot wound through left forearm (shattered radius/ulna)
            -single gunshot wound through left calf

            Staff Sgt. Paul Martin, 45
            -single gunshot wound to
            -single gunshot wound to lower thigh
            -single gunshot wound to lower forearm
            -single gunshot wound to wrist


            Gunshot to Torso- 11 total

            CWO Chris Royal, 38
            -two gunshot wounds to back (passed laterally through flesh across back)
            -single graze to side

            Amber Bahr, 19
            -single gunshot wound to lower back (exited abdomen missing all major organs/vessels)

            Dorothy Carskadon
            -two gunshot wounds to hip
            -single gunshot wound to abdomen (small/large intestinal resection)
            -single to graze forehead

            Pvt. Najee Hull, 21
            -single gunshot wound to knee
            -two gunshot wounds to lower back (splenectomy, small/large intestinal resection)

            SSgt. Alonzo Lunsford
            -two gunshot wounds to lower abdomen
            -single graze to side
            -single graze to head

            Spc Logan Burnette
            -single gunshot through lower abdomen (entered through and breaking left hip then traveled through both upper/lower intestines to lodge in pelvis on right side)
            -single gunshot wound to left elbow
            -single gunshot wound to knuckle of left little finger

            Spc Matthew Cooke, 30
            -three gunshot wounds in lower back (lost bladder, colon and most of intestines)
            -single gunshot wound to abdomen (lost bladder, colon and most of intestines)
            -single graze to scalp

            Justin Johnson, 21
            -two gunshot wounds to back (entered near midline, recovered/exited near nipple, multiple fractured ribs, collapsed lung)
            -single gunshot wound to foot

            Sgt. John Pagel, 28
            -single gunshot wound through left arm into chest (fractured humerus, fractured ribs, collapsed lung)

            Shawn Manning, 33
            -single gunshot wound to chest/lung (fractured ribs, collapsed lung)
            -three gunshot wounds to abdomen (missed all major vessels/arteries, intestinal resection lg/sm, abdominoperineal resection)
            -single gunshot wound to thigh
            -single gunshot wound to foot

            Patrick Zeigler, 28
            -single gunshot wound to shoulder
            -single gunshot wound to hip
            -single gunshot wound to forearm
            -single gunshot wound to head (coma, left side paralyzed)


            Gunshot to unknown location- 1 total

            CWO Chris Birmingham
            -three gunshot wounds, unknown locations


            Non-gunshot related/unknown- 3 total

            Pvt. Raymondo Saucedo, 26
            -not hit by gunfire as initially indicated, minor injury to arm

            ????????
            -reported as minor injury caused while escaping

            ????????
            -unknown but minor injury



            Here are some news reports Google yielded. Note that the victims and/or their families chose to share this information. The reports generally match up with the rough list that was posted earlier:


            http://articles.latimes.com/2010/oct...imony-20101015

            "It was like a cannon going off inside the building," Martin said. Hasan shot Martin in the left arm, he testified. As he tried to flee, Hasan shot him again in the back, he said. "I dropped to the floor like a rock and I said to myself, 'I'm paralyzed,' " Martin said at the Article 32 hearing. Martin recovered, but was left with severe back pain and numbness in his fingers, he said.



            http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/hea...od.wounded.cnn

            CNN video interview with one of the soldiers, Logan Burnette, who was shot in the elbow, finger, and hip.



            http://kdka.com/local/Monessen.Soldi...2.1297165.html

            Second Lieutenant Brandy Mason of Monessen, Westmoreland County, was shot in the thigh.



            http://www2.eufaulatribune.com/euf/n...t_hood/107276/

            Staff Sgt. Chad Davis, whose parents live in Eufaula, was reportedly shot near the shoulder.



            http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...n/6716290.html

            In an interview with KHOU, Ferguson said she was hit in the arm, shoulder and leg. She suffered a broken bone in her arm, a collapsed lung and other internal injuries.



            http://www.39online.com/news/local/k...,3032369.story

            "I was on the ground and he saw me and he shot me in the arm," she recalled. Ferguson said she used a chair for support and to shield her head while two more bullets ripped through her body. During that time she remembers praying and screaming in terror. "I got shot in my left leg and it came up into my stomach; and it damaged my fallopian tubes and my ovaries and they had to cut out part of my intestine. I have 33 staples I think like going up my stomach," said Ferguson.



            http://www.kfdm.com/articles/injured...ght-names.html

            John Jackson, the 39-year-old's father, says his son, who's been in the Army for more than 20 years, was hit by a bullet in his forearm, that eventually ended up in his wrist.



            http://www.channel3000.com/news/21728220/detail.html

            Grant Moxon said he was sitting down with other unit members when he heard shouting and shots fired. Moxon said he thought it was an army exercise and so did others. He said the bullet felt "like a sledgehammer" and he played dead for a short bit before hiding behind a desk and then running out of the building with some others. "The bullet went into my leg right there," he said, pointing to his left leg. "So about two inches above my knee, and it's lodged somewhere in my thigh." Taking the bullet out of Moxon's leg might cause muscle damage, so it's being left in.



            http://www.kboi2.com/news/71621797.html

            Since a killer's bullet entered the back of his left shoulder, Pfc. George Stratton III, of Post Falls, has shaken President Barack Obama's hand and been hugged by the first lady. He's been showered with concern and attention from people throughout the Inland Northwest. But that support doesn't strip away the bad dreams or the memories of seeing friends and colleagues lying in pools of blood, some dying on the grounds of Fort Hood, in Texas. Nor does it repair the shattered humerus bone in his upper left shoulder, a memento of the Nov. 5 shooting rampage in which Army Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan has been charged.



            http://www.sunjournal.com/node/435602

            James Armstrong, a mental health specialist with the 1908th Medical Detachment, Combat Stress Control, was shot in the knee and grazed by a bullet on his back, Rose said. "A bullet hit him above the kneecap and went in and out," she said.



            http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...holidays_N.htm

            Staff Sgt. Joy Clark, 27, of Des Moines, a licensed occupational therapist assistant scheduled to deploy to Afghanistan as part of a mental health team, was among those at "ground zero." She had been at Fort Hood just 24 hours when a bullet pierced her forearm, shattered a bone and shredded an artery. Surgeons grafted bone from her hip to the bone in her forearm. It will be a month before she'll know whether the graft worked, and then at least six months of healing and rehabilitation to regain strength and range of motion in the arm, she says.



            http://thegazette.com/2009/11/07/joy...t-hood-rampage

            Nelson, who spoke to his daughter Friday morning, said she was shot in the left forearm. “The bullet passed through. She has some severe bone damage in her arm,” he said.



            http://www.kmbc.com/news/21544776/detail.html

            Bono had been hit in the left shoulder and suffered a cut on her head.



            HTTP://WWW.WBNG.COM/NEWS/LOCAL/69418247.HTML

            Matthew went through almost 8 hours of surgery, and then slipped into a coma. Frappier says he was shot after he tried to help another injured person. The three bullets just missed Matthew's spinal cord and all of his vital organs.



            http://www.army.mil/article/55931/So...covery_at_WTB/

            "The bullet that went through my groin and butt, that bullet penetrated and took five feet of my small intestine out," he said. "It basically ricocheted all over in my bladder and it penetrated my colon."



            http://www.theindychannel.com/news/21535692/detail.html

            "I heard somebody shooting and I got down, and then I tried to get people out with me as I found a way to get out," Hewitt said. One bullet grazed his hip, and another hit him in the calf.



            http://www.wdaz.com/event/article/id/625/

            A North Dakota man says his son was wounded in the side by bullet fragments during the shooting rampage at the Fort Hood Army base in Texas.



            http://www.908aw.afrc.af.mil/news/st...p?id=123190069

            After the shooting started, the major had been shot in the back part of the left arm, and the bullet had broken the small bone before exiting through the forearm below the elbow. As he tried to get behind cover, the shooter fired at him again, hitting him in the back of the left thigh. Rendered unable to move, he might have been shot yet again, but a woman reached out and pulled him out of harm's way, and applied a tourniquet to his arm.

            Comment


            • #66
              Here is an even more detailed account of the tragedy at Fort Hood as taken from the
              Article 32 Hearing.

              http://cmm.lefora.com/2010/10/14/for...al-malik-hasa/

              SGT. ALONZO M. LUNSFORD JR. 20 year Army veteran (worked at the Soldier Readiness Center )
              "His first targets were members of the unit Hasan was scheduled to deploy with
              to Afghanistan. I saw a physicians assistant lift a chair over his head to try and
              stop Hasan and the Major turned, fired and brought the man down."

              "I was in a crouched position, then prone, searching for a way out, then decided to
              make a run for the exit."

              When I got up Major Hasan and I made eye contact, he brings his weapon over
              me - "He looked at me, I looked at him.

              "The laser comes across my line of sight. And I closed my eyes. And I get hit
              in the head, I spin around. turned toward the door, took two steps and dropped
              and I hit the floor."

              "The left side of my face was on the ground and I felt blood pooling around me,
              but I could still see Hasan with my right eye. I did a "self assessment, realized I
              could move my hands and feet, got up and ran out the doors."
              A tough cookie. He lost half of his face.


              MICHELLE HARPER (CIVILIAN ARMY EMPLOYEE) LAB TECHNICIAN
              "I could hear the pop of his gunfire, and I saw one solder drop. I realized from
              the movements of his body that he had been hit three times."

              SPC. AMBER BARR
              Spc. Amber Barr described how she and her buddies ran for their lives when
              the shooting began.

              "I saw there was blood. I smelled sulfur in the air and I realized it was not a drill.
              It was absolute chaos. People just trying to shield themselves from the gunshots."

              "I and others managed to get outside and I helped half-carry, half-drag a friend to
              a nearby pick-up truck which took us and others to the Fort Hood hospital.
              It was only then, when I tried to sit down, I realized I had been shot in the lower
              back."
              It's common to not know you are shot during a gun battle because of adrenaline. Only a shot to the CNS is going to assure incapacitation.

              SGT. MATTHEW COOK
              "I was shot four times but was so charged up on adrenaline I didn't realize I
              had been wounded. I still carry bullet fragments in my body."
              Again, flesh wounds are ineffective in the short term.

              PFC GEORGE STRATTON
              "As soon as I turned I saw Maj. Hasan behind me. He was holding an older-fashioned
              pistol. As soon as I looked at him, he brought his magazine up and loaded it. He looked
              straight down at me, we made eye contact, and he brought his weapon down toward me.
              I turned on him, and the weapon fired. It hit me in the left shoulder, my arm went limp."
              "I couldn't feel it at all."

              "I then hit the ground, and crawled as fast as he could to the door."
              Rounds from the FiveseveN are devastating against hard objects - including bones. They usually penetrate instead of glancing off.


              Some witnesses testified that Michael Grant Cahill, a civilian physician
              assistant, and Capt. John Gaffaney, a psychiatric nurse preparing to
              deploy to Iraq, each were fatally shot after picking up chairs to try to
              stop Hasan.

              CHIEF WARRANT OFFICER II CHRISTOPHER ROYAL
              Testifying by telephone from Georgia.

              "I went to one corner and looked for a way to pounce on the gunman.
              I saw Sgt. Alonzo Lunsford run of the same door I escaped from, and
              during that time the shooter opened the door before Sergeant Lunsford
              got to the parking lot and he shot Sergeant Lunsford, and he fell face
              down into the grass."

              I'm going to the building, he comes adjacent to the other side and sees me
              again, and he starts firing at me. I ran to a sport utility vehicle and took cover.
              Hasan bore down, squeezing off rounds. I felt something jump me in the back,
              but I wasn't sure what it was. Then I realized I'd been shot in the back."
              He was shot in the back while hiding behind a sport utility vehicle? The gun was designed to penetrate. This example is a case in point.


              SPC. MEGAN MARTIN 467th Medical Detachment, the combat stress unit
              testifying via a video link from Kandahar, Afghanistan
              "A captain from my unit charged the gunman with a folding chair. "But he wasn't
              fast enough (fighting tears), and he was shot at close range."

              "I focused on a man in fatigues and ripple-soled desert boots moving with a
              laser-sighted handgun near an area called station 13. The gunman sprayed
              bullets at soldiers in a fanlike motion, before taking aim at individual soldiers.

              When I saw a soldier near me was bleeding from the mouth, I hit the ground.
              But my eyes stayed riveted on the man with the pistol."
              This spraying in a fanlike motion might explain a lot of the "limb shots" as he was just trying to hit as many people as possible during this period.

              SPC. JAMES ARMSTRONG (Shot twice)

              "I was in a large seating area when I heard shooting and turned around to see
              soldiers being shot and a chair thrown amid rapid gunfire before the shooter
              reloaded.

              The scene was "the worst horror movie," with wounded soldiers leaving bloody
              handprints on walls as they tried to get up and blood pooled on the floor where
              they lay dead."

              SPC. LOGAN BURNETT reserve combat stress unit

              "I saw Capt. John Gaffane try to attack Hasan with a chair."
              "I saw that captain fall. Even so, I decided to try to rush the gunman when I
              saw a magazine drop from his pistol. "I stood up and grabbed a folding table.
              "I turned to throw it toward the shooter. At that point I was struck in the hip
              and fell down."

              "I was shot twice more, in the elbow and hand, as I tried to crawl for safety
              into a cubicle. I glanced backward when I finally fled the building. "There was
              no station 13 at that point. There was nothing but chairs scattered everywhere,
              bodies scattered everywhere, blood everywhere."
              Another devastating bone shot.


              STAFF SGT. JOY CLARK 467th Medical Detachment - combat medic and
              occupational therapist

              "I was sitting between a veteran psychiatric nurse, Lt. Col. Juanita Warman, and
              Capt. Russell Seager, when the gunfire erupted, Warman pulled me down to the
              ground, and we lay facing each other on the floor of the center.

              "Then I heard her cry. I reached over her side to see if I could feel the wound.
              And my hand came back bloody. I heard more shots, saw Seager had stopped
              moving, felt for the officers' pulses. There were none. I saw a soldier fall in front
              of me "convulsing and coughing up blood," and reached to pull him toward me.
              That is when she felt a sting in my left forearm, "and I lost my hold on his jacket."

              The gunfire shattered her radius and ulna.

              CAPT. MELISSA KALE 467th Medical Detachment
              Testifying via live feed from Afghanistan

              (Crying) Sgt. Amy Krueger, had been shot Nov. 5 after a gunman began
              spraying bullets in the Army post's Soldier Readiness Processing Center.

              "I wanted to get to the east wall. I tried to pull (her) with me. I was unable
              to pull her. She didn't move, so I had to leave her there."

              MAJOR ERIC TORINA

              "I saw Maj. Libardo Caraveo killed while sitting in the waiting area of the
              processing center. "I saw Maj. Caraveo was sitting like he was before,
              with his legs crossed and his head down, almost like he was sleeping.
              But I noticed a bullet hole in his head that was dripping blood."
              This conjures up a very chilling image...


              SPC. JOHN PAGEL Mental Health Specialist
              "At first, I thought I had been hit with a paintball."
              The FiveseveN haters should put this one in their signature lines...

              SPC. GRANT MOXON
              "I was shot in the leg when I saw my (467th) squad leader go down.
              I lay across Staff Sgt. Shawn Manning to protect him from getting hit
              again. He was bleeding pretty badly. I kind of tried to help him."

              Staff Sgt. Manning survived.

              SPC. LANCE AVILES

              "There was a loud shout, 'Allahu akbar,' and then gunshots.

              "I initially thought the shooting was a training exercise."

              Aviles testified to a sense of shocked realization that the attack was real.

              "I saw friends and fellow soldiers lying on the floor in pools of blood. I saw a soldier
              lying on the floor with part of his skull damaged (the GI later died). One soon died
              of a bullet wound to the head. I saw Hasan quickly reload a black handgun.
              "I considered trying to tackle Hasan after seeing the left side of my battle buddy's
              head blown open. I thought I might be able to charge as the shooter reloaded.
              But the gunman switched magazines too quickly. I looked up where the shooter
              was and I seen the magazine drop and so when the magazine dropped I got up.
              I'm trying to take a left turn to go toward the shooter, and when I took that left turn,
              he had already reloaded."

              "I jumped under a table...
              The advantage, and in this case tragedy, of a semi-automatic firearm with large capacity...


              SPC. JOSEPH FOSTER (testifying via video feed from Kandahar,
              Afghanistan)

              "I was texting a friend."

              "The shooter spoke with a "strong, stern voice, like a drill instructor."
              "I heard the man shout out "Allahu Akbar" -- Arabic for "God is great"
              and then felt the shooter's attention turn to him. The weapon came in
              my direction, the laser came across my eyes. I fell to the ground and
              I felt sharp pain in my hip."
              Bone penetration.


              TED COUKOULIS (CIVILIAN NURSE)
              "When it was apparent that the shooter had left the building, I rushed to begin treating
              the wounded. There was so much blood on the floor, and so many shell casings
              submerged in it, that I kept slipping and falling. Soldiers were dying all around station 13.
              I saw a lieutenant colonel bleeding out so fast that "it was like a soaker hose you would
              have in your garden, the amount of blood coming out in a perfect line."

              I had to use my sweat shirt to keep wiping my face because so much blood was spurting
              as others gave another dying soldier cardiopulmonary resuscitation."
              This is a very graphic account of what the SS192 does to tissue in vital areas.

              SGT. 1ST CLASS MARIA GUERRA (BUILDING MANAGER)
              "The shooter reloaded three times before moving from the front area, "in one
              motion, dropping a magazine and up came another one." After the rampage
              ended, I locked the doors to make sure the gunman would not come back
              inside. I saw the carnage amid the room darkened by thick smoke from the gunfire.
              "All I saw was soldiers, just bodies all over the floor - bodies and blood.
              No one was moving."

              STAFF SGT. MICHAEL "CHAD" DAVIS
              "I was shot in the back as I crawled from beneath a desk."

              CROSS EXAMINATION
              DEFENSE Attorney Lt. Col. Kris Poppe


              STAFF SGT. MICHAEL "CHAD" DAVIS
              "I didn't see the shooter, the bullet may have pierced the cubicle wall before
              hitting me."
              I'm wondering if this didn't happen to a lot of people - 5.7mm bullets flying around a room and cutting through cubicle walls as well as people's limbs and penetrating yet more victims. A cubicle wall as well as a human forearm isn't going to slow a 5.7mm bullet very much at all unless it hits bone.


              MAJOR STEPHEN RICHTER (ARMY MEDICAL CORPS)
              testifying via video link from South Korea
              "I thought the rapid rate of gunfire meant there was more than one shooter.
              A testament to how deadly a weapon, with little recoil, allowing such easy follow up shots, can be. I propose had he used a traditional caliber weapon, that he would have fired much fewer shots in the short time during his murderous rampage. I guess this statement is obvious as there are few if any weapons that can match the FiveseveN's capacity. But, if we temporarily allow equal capacity among all firearm choices, I think the 5-7's recoil would still have allowed more shots fired regardless of the traditional caliber choice. I also think fatigue would have set into his wrist causing his aim to suffer dramatically with larger calibers. After 146 shots of .40 or .45 caliber loads in less than 10 mins, your aim is going to suffer unless you are very strong or very practiced in multiple mag dumps. That would have been around 20 mag changes if he were using a 1911.

              I would say that we are lucky that Hasan didn't choose a more "potent" caliber pistol. As sick as it sounds, considering the shooters experience, amount of damage intended, short period of time to do it, I say he picked the "best" weapon he could have, short of a fully-automatic smg.

              Comment


              • #67
                Continued...



                OFFICER KIMBERLY MUNLEY
                When she first saw the gunman walking with his gun extended, I couldn’t get a clear
                shot at him because so many soldiers were running behind him. “I did not want any friendly fire.”

                The gunman retreated behind a building, she testified, so I went to a corner and got in a prone position to wait for a clear shot. Before long, the gunman came toward me, shooting, so I fired back, aiming for the gunman’s “center mass” in a bid “to stop the threat.”

                "I took cover behind a building whose rainspout was peppered by Hasan's gunshots, spraying me with shrapnel. Shards of metal from the gutter hit me in one hand. I could see the gunman round the corner and closing on me.

                “I quickly got up, got into a shooting stance,” I fired back, aiming for "center mass,"
                I got hit in the thigh first, and I believe that started to take me down. My Beretta 9 mm
                handgun had jammed just as the second bullet hit me in the knee and knocked
                me to the ground.

                He moved away from me and encountered Officer Todd, who ordered Hasan several
                times to drop his gun."

                Kimberly Munley had surgery for wounds in her hand, hip and included a femur
                shattered into 120 pieces,
                Again, devastating bone damage. With fragmentation that severed a very important artery and almost took her life.

                "I couldn’t get a clear
                shot at him because so many soldiers were running behind him. “I did not want any friendly fire."

                That's a good thing because she certainly couldn't shoot very well. Her weapon carried 14 rounds (including the round in the chamber) and she missed him with all her shots. She wasn't further from him than 7 yards.

                The bad guy had the FiveseveN, the good (girl) had the Beretta 9mm. The bad guy was shot zero times from close range, the good girl was shot 2 or 3 times with injuries to her wrist, knee, and leg. It was also reported that her gun jammed as she was falling to the ground when her leg was shattered. Perhaps if she would have been firing the FiveseveN things would have turned out differently for her? Dare I say this against the "vaunted" 9mm Beretta?


                OFFICER MARK TODD

                "I arrived at the processing center parking lot shortly after Officer Munley.
                As I ran up a small rise, following my partner, I could hear so much gunfire
                echoing around the four buildings that it sounded like “thousands of rounds going off.”

                "I too was directed to the gunman by soldiers."

                When I spotted the gunman, I shouted repeated commands to surrender, but the
                gunman opened fire. The gunman retreated around a corner of the building,
                and I then heard more volleys that sounded like they were coming from different
                weapons.

                "I followed and soon saw the gunman standing by a telephone pole."

                20 feet away from the downed and wounded Officer Munley, trying to crawl
                for her weapon, Officer Mark Todd confronts the gunman.

                I challenged him — 'Halt! Military police! Drop your weapon

                At that moment, I saw the gunman's red targeting laser fixed on me.
                The gunman got off several shots.

                I returned fire five times from my Beretta M9 semiautomatic pistol.

                "I seen him wince a couple times. He collapsed and slid down against
                a telephone pole. "I ran up, rushed him. I kicked the weapon
                away, flipped him over to handcuff him and placed him in hand irons."

                I began emergency medical treatment. I started checking his vitals to try to
                save his life.

                Emergency rescue crews then took over, and I left the gunman to help
                wounded soldiers. But fire, I recovered a semiautomatic pistol, a revolver
                and several magazines loaded with rounds.

                When I reached into Hasan’s pants pockets, I found he still had an arsenal,
                loaded magazines for his Herstal semiautomatic and an unused revolver
                along with a cellphone."

                The revolver apparently was not fired during the rampage.
                Officer Todd, the one that hit Hasan in the CNS and crippled him, said he shot at Hasan under fire but there are conflicting accounts of what really happened. In the following article, an eye witness stated that Todd caught up with Hasan after "rounding a building" and shot him while Hasan was reloading his FiveseveN. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/13/us...pagewanted=all It could very well be that Hasan was taken out by a shot to the back.

                The issue of who took out Hasan was also controversial as all "official accounts" during the first few days had Munley taking Hasan out. Later we learn that she missed him completely. I'm thinking there was some manufacturing of the hero to make things look as good as possible for whatever reason. The bad guy was taken down, that is all that mattered.



                FREDERICK BRANNON (Former Salesman at the Guns Galore in Killeen, Tx)
                "Nidal Hasan walked into the area's largest gun store, Guns Galore. He drew
                attention by asking which handgun in the store was "the most high-tech."
                The manager, after a little head scratching, came up with the FN 5.7 pistol."
                Hasan left that day, saying that he had to look up the weapon. The next day,
                Aug. 1, 2009, he bought the gun, an expensive laser sight, several magazine
                extenders and boxes of the armor-piercing ammo. That, too, was odd because
                Hasan took out a cell phone and made a video of the manager's demonstration
                of how to load the new pistol, remove its magazine and break it down for cleaning.

                "I'd never seen any other customer make such a video. Hasan said that "he wanted
                to review it later."

                "Hasan was told that the SS192 cartridges were becoming less available and that
                once the store exhausted its supply, Hasan would have to buy a less penetrating
                version."

                "Hasan reappeared every week or two to buy more magazines, magazine extenders
                and four or five boxes of ammo – usually the penetrating 55192 rounds and extra
                magazines for the gun.

                "When I asked Hasan why he was buying so many magazines, Hasan told him he
                didn't like spending time loading magazines at the shooting range and preferred to
                have a large supply."

                "Hasan bought a top-end green laser sight for daytime shooting."

                SPC WILLIAM GILBERT
                "I was browsing at the store and I was asked to tell Hasan about the
                weapon, because I own a Herstal FN 5.7. I "tried to kind of feel [Hasan]
                out" about what he would do with a handgun. Hasan was vague, saying
                that he wanted something high-tech with the biggest magazine possible."
                "He did not know what he was looking for. He did not know about handguns."

                "Based on Hasan's requirements — he wanted something technologically
                advanced and with a large magazine capacity — I advised Hasan to buy
                the FN 5-7, which uses magazines that can be extended to hold 30 rounds.
                It's extremely lightweight and very, very, very accurate. It's easy to fire and
                has minimal recoil."

                "I own the same weapon and am a gun aficionado."

                "I explained that the FN had a 20-round magazine capable of being fitted
                with extenders to hold 30 bullets. The gun was light and "very, very easy
                to fire with one hand, like shooting a .22." I explained that one of the
                weapon's three types of ammunition, the 55192 round, had such penetrating
                capabilities that authorities ordered it off the market after existing stocks were
                sold. I told Hasan that the round was thought to be able to penetrate Kevlar
                armor and expand on hitting flesh, "basically liquefying anything ... in that area."

                "I spent nearly an hour talking to Hasan."

                Comment


                • #68
                  Penetrator, stop trolling.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by jannino View Post
                    Penetrator, stop trolling.
                    I have done nothing of the sort. I directly answered multiple posts infusing the thread with much needed facts.

                    Wikipedia: In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4] The noun troll may refer to the provocative message itself, as in: "That was an excellent troll you posted".

                    Any emotional response you may be experiencing is derived from your own acceptance or lack of acceptance of the facts I posted.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      I would also appreciate it greatly if any LEOs on here who carry the Five-seveN as their duty pistol would either post it in this thread and/or post it on the FN forums here:

                      http://fnforum.net/forums/fn-five-se...ive-seven.html

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Penetrator View Post
                        I have done nothing of the sort. I directly answered multiple posts infusing the thread with much needed facts.

                        Wikipedia: In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4] The noun troll may refer to the provocative message itself, as in: "That was an excellent troll you posted".

                        Any emotional response you may be experiencing is derived from your own acceptance or lack of acceptance of the facts I posted.
                        You fit that very definition. You are not trying to have rational dialogue. You are doing nothing but trying to overwhelm people with information overload in attempts of everyone bowing down to you and saying how smart you are. It's not going to happen.

                        You don't know my opinion on the gun or round. I haven't stated it. I don't have a dog in this fight so slow your roll down.

                        Linking to other forums is also not allowed here. And I believe you've already worn out your welcome here. Any emotional response you may have is only because you choose not to accept this as truth.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Wow I never saw a POST that was 3 pages long, this guys has POSTS longer than the Freemason thread ;-).

                          All about a centerfire 22 magnum, sheesh. Imagine what this guy could do with the 22 savage high power ? Which was introduced in 1912, and fired a 70 grain .228 bullet at 2780 fps, if we loaded it with an aluminum core 28 grain bullet heck we might hit 4000+ fps..and be able to penetrate 47 layers of kevlar, then a Buick, and still penetrate 8" into ordnance gelatin :-).

                          Bill
                          Just pay your dues, and be quiet :-)

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            CARTRIDGE, CALIBER .22, BALL, HORNET, M65

                            For some historical perspective google that :-)....and explain the operative difference between it and the 5.7, not much of one really.
                            Just pay your dues, and be quiet :-)

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              There is such a thing as a post being so long that no one will read it. And I'm one who quickly bores with cut and paste reposts...

                              Predator, Just stop it. Use your own command of the language and get to the point. Taking command of a thread when you have sixteen posts? Really?

                              My agency got a 5.7 pistol and a P-90 to T&E in SWAT. They were quickly sent back.

                              As far as a uniforrmed patrolman carrying seperate types of ammo, it ain't gonna happen. Switching loads at the drop of a hat depending on circumstances? Uh-uhh. Not enough time to make a decision and change mags then rack one in.

                              The North Hollywood robbery took everyone by suprise; espesially the LAPD bosses who mandated that mere patrolmen have to carry a 9mm, and decided ARs were to be forbidden. Evil black rifle syndrome. Fortunately agencies across the country learned from the experience. Even I was issued an AR-15 as a detective, to compliment my 12 ga.
                              Last edited by KenW.; 01-20-2012, 08:49 PM.
                              I am concerned for the security of our great Nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within.

                              Douglas MacArthur

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                The five seven was the same pistol that nutbag at Fort Hood used to shoot and kill all those people. You could do your research on that incident to determine it's effect.
                                "Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. The MARINES don't have that problem." ....Ronald Reagan

                                Comment

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