Leader

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

FN Five-seveN pistol use

Collapse

300x250 Mobile

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    OK fyrdog, I live in the real world, not the TV world.

    Willbird, Everything I have seen says S&W got the first .357's out - where did you see that Ruger did? Those were the "Registered" Magnums, in 1935 (Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson). As I recall, Ruger (then Sturm, Ruger) was not even a company until the 1950's. So S&W were producing .357 Magnum revolvers for 20 years before Ruger.
    "A man who has nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the existing of better men than himself."
    John Stuart Mill

    Comment


    • #47
      "USSS operates under different rules around "The Man". Street cops do not have the same rules."

      Next you're going to point out that the average street cop isn't supported by a small army of local, state and federal personnel to include multiple CAT and SWAT teams in the immediate area. Most of which, of course, are not armed with anything chambered in the cartridge in question. ;-)

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Sleuth View Post
        OK fyrdog, I live in the real world, not the TV world.

        Willbird, Everything I have seen says S&W got the first .357's out - where did you see that Ruger did? Those were the "Registered" Magnums, in 1935 (Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson). As I recall, Ruger (then Sturm, Ruger) was not even a company until the 1950's. So S&W were producing .357 Magnum revolvers for 20 years before Ruger.
        Actually I mis remembered, it was the 44 magnum not the 357 magnum.
        Just pay your dues, and be quiet :-)

        Comment


        • #49
          Actually I mis remembered, it was the 44 magnum not the 357 magnum.
          Just pay your dues, and be quiet :-)

          Comment


          • #50
            I saw a couple today. The magazines had marks for 28 rounds.
            Last edited by DAL; 01-18-2012, 11:25 PM.
            Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley
            Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity. -- Albert Einstein

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by cnix880 View Post
              I was talking with some coworkers about the FN 5.7 and we were wondering if there are any agencies that use or are authorized to use the FN Five-seveN pistol as a duty weapon, so I thought I'd post here. In case some of you are not familiar with this pistol I've provided a link to FNH USA.

              http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/fi...003&gid=FNG001

              Carl
              Carl,

              The Five-seveN/P90 are currently used in 40+ countries and by hundreds of law enforcement agencies in the United States.

              Wikipedia lists users for the Five-seveN and P90:

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_P90#Users
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Five-seven#Users

              Note that external sources are cited for each individual user in the lists.


              Here are a couple random citations of the Five-seveN (and P90) being used by a department:

              http://www.tactical-life.com/online/...cal-firepower/

              S.W.A.T. team commander Capt. Mohamed Lostan of the Passaic County Sheriff’s Dept. in NJ is a particularly enthusiastic supporter of the

              handgun and cartridge. “While our department issues .40-cal. pistols, our S.W.A.T. team is allowed to carry any handgun they want to use as

              long as they purchase it themselves and qualify with it, In fact, I was the first one on the team to carry the Five-seveN, although now

              several others do as well,” he continued. Lostan definitely knows his way around firearms. In addition to his 23 years with the sheriff’s

              department and current position he also served in the U.S. Army in the 3rd Division Recon Unit and the 82nd Airborne Division.

              “I was so impressed by the 5.7×28mm cartridge used in the P90 that I asked permission for S.W.A.T. team members to be able to carry Five-

              seveN pistols if we purchased them on our own.”


              http://web.archive.org/web/200209030...c529800ad.html (Summary: Duluth, GA police with FN Five-seveN pistols shot and killed a man

              holed up in his garage shooting at them with a .357 Magnum revolver)

              http://www.dui1.com/DuiCaseLawDetail829.htm (Summary: Sioux Falls, SD police officer with a P90 shot a man in the arm through a bedroom door

              and he dropped his weapon and surrendered)

              The best known case involving U.S. police would still be the aforementioned shooting in Houston, TX, which is supported by the article from

              Sandy Wall, who noted that the SS190 bullet performed well (as confirmed by autopsy) and compared its performance to a 9x19mm 115-grain JHP

              +P+.


              And here is a thread that is updated from time to time on the FNH forum listing agencies using the Five-seveN.

              http://fnforum.net/forums/fn-five-se...ive-seven.html


              There are actually a lot of LEOs scattered across the U.S. that post on the two major 5.7 forums carrying the Five-seveN. If you are LEO, you can get access to the LEO-only sections and find them all easily.

              Another dept. just came to mind; Columbia, MO cycle officers are issued both the Five-seveN and the P90.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Blackdog F4i View Post
                Ummm. OK.

                I guess my next question is.....why do you care what agencies issue what? Are you attempting to base an employment decision based on a duty weapon? Or are you attempting to justify the purchase of a Five-Seven because "such and such" PD uses one?

                I would HIGHLY suggest that you research the effectiveness of the round on something more than varmints.
                Does this suffice?

                The Five-seveN pistol is the lightest, highest capacity pistol you will probably ever fire. It has a huge muzzle blast, is as loud as a 10mm, and always gets attention at the range. While the factory ammo doesn't tap the full potential of the Five-seveN, it has proven to be more than enough to take down humans as well as medium-sized game. Recoil is quite a bit less than 9mm, 5.7 ammo weighs 50% less than 9mm, and with an inch and a half mag extension you can have 31 shots at your disposal. Making fast, accurate follow up shots is the Five-seveN's ace in the hole.

                Someone always mentions an old FBI test whenever the topic comes up where outdated and discontinued ammo was shown to offer less than optimal penetration. That's very, very old news so I would advise disregarding it. There are numerous 5.7x28mm loads currently available that penetrate 12+ inches in ballistic gelatin. For example, this random handload expanded and penetrated 14-15 inches in three tests done by Brassfetcher in calibrated 10% ballistic gelatin:



                Considering FN limits the power of factory ammo because of its armor-penetrating characteristics and all the "Cop-Killer" hub-bub, aftermarket ammo is where the 5.7 really shines. You can buy 5.7 ammo that reaches 405 ft-lbs and 2,600 fps out of the pistol or 670 ft-lbs and 3,400 fps out of the PS90. That ain't your grandaddy's 22WMR.. :rofl: I carry my Five-seveN concealed and loaded with S4M. A little info about the S4M round:

                It was the general opinion of three physicians-two military surgeons with oversea deployment and a trauma surgeon who operated on roughly a thousand gunshot wounds, that nobody could survive an S4 torso hit unless it took place right in the operating room- and even then it would be at best a toss up." -Dr. JD Brown
                As tested, both 5.7x28mm cartridges offer lethality that is on par with or slightly greater than a .45ACP 230gr jacketed hollowpoint. This is accomplished through an intelligent usage of the pitch/yaw cycle inherent to any spin-stabilized projectile – the nose of the 5.7mm bullets travel through the first 2” of ballistic gelatin in a nose-forward orientation, which minimizes drag. As such, the very impressive amount of kinetic energy lost by most expanding bullets in the first few inches of penetration have little or no effect on the human target and actually decreases the effectiveness of expanding ammunition in incapacitating a target.

                Conversely, the FN SS-195 and the Elite Ammunition S4M offer performance quite similar to the tested .45ACP, with considerably lower recoil and ammunition weight, coupled with a significantly higher weapon magazine capacity. We feel that the Elite Ammunition S4M can be seen as a “+P” version of the very effective 27gr 5.7mm FMJ and we have no qualms about recommending this cartridge as a feasible replacement to the more conventional .45ACP handgun, for use against human attackers. -Brass Fetcher Ballistic Testing
                Since pictures are worth a thousand words, and no discussion of terminal ballistics is complete without something being terminal; have a look at some animals that were released from their corporeal existence thanks to the Five-seveN pistol:












                The 160-pound hog in the first two pictures was dropped with one round of SS197SR (not sure about the hog in the third picture).

                The 182-pound deer in the last picture was dropped from 70 meters with one round of SS197SR through the lungs/heart.




                More hunting data...



                Originally posted by eddie
                okay. saw no hogs in texas. (and i thought they had a problem with hogs....only problem i had was i saw no hogs.

                anyhow Rifle season for deer opened up on sat. i was working so i missed sat but i made it out on sunday. nada. well monday was the charm.

                i got a medium doe with my PS90. 35-45 yards away. used SS197. shot her in the chest. double lung. she walked 10-15 paced and that was it. i found the round just under the skin on the opposite side. it had also passed through her shoulder. it missed her ribs and other bones as far as i can tell right now

                then as i was cleaning her, a medium buck walked by. i used my new (got it friday the 18th) Colt 45 special combat govt. i used my reloads. 230gr JHP rounds. he was 30-40 yards away. again, a double lung shot. he walked about 12-15 paces and died.

                i could not believe that while i was cleaning one another walked on by.







                now for the fun part. i have not found the 45 acp round yet. it passes through and may have hit the flat part of his shoulder. i found a very small exit hole in his outer fur. the holes on the inside of the rib cage were not all that big.

                the 5.7x28 round was a different story. it passes through the body cavity and through the muscle of her shoulder. it stopped just below the skin/fur. the hole on both sides of the rib cage were 2-3 times bigger than the 45acp holes. the 5.7 round holes were probably like 2-2.5 inches in diameter. i shot a couple of quick snaps and used a quarter for size. the holes are 9 o'clock in one photo and 11 o'clock in another...between the ribs

                photos here: http://photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=1020723

                i found three pieces of the SS197 round. i found all three pieces in roughly the same spot.







                a very interesting day. i will get more photos after we get the skins off. i will get better measurements and see if i can find the 45 round.

                please see these photos for the measurements of the 3 pieces from the 5.7 round. http://photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=1020723

                eddie




                This is more like what I hear about people that have hunted with the very relatively low-powered (compared to what you can buy from EA) factory SS197 round. It does a LOT more damage than what they were expecting. When analyzing the effects of 5.7x28mm rounds on living tissue it requires one to actually see the effects on tissue, not just make a prediction based on grain weight, velocity, and energy. You have to understand the bullets behavior when impacting flesh at a certain speed. In the SS197's case, the 40gr ballistic V-Max round has shredded a lot of game over the years.



                Here are a few more second-hand accounts of the 5.7 used against game:

                I love my 5.7, and It makes a great carry gun for hiking as it is light and I can carry it and 60 rounds that weighs less than one loaded 1911 with 8 rounds. My old man took a coyote out with one in the yard and it put a hole out the other side of the chest the size of a cantaloupe (It was an oblique shot no less).
                I'd really like to see just one topic that celebrates this unique cartridge instead of calling it a novelty. I trust my five seven as much or more than any of my other firearms. It has jammed exactly as many times as my S&W 686 (that's a revolver kids).

                Two weeks ago I came across a half dead deer on the side of the road, coming home from the range. I used the five seven to put the poor thing down, and the head/neck wound was probably the most gore I have ever seen besides fresh roadkill. I have no doubts to the lethallity of this caliber, seeing as one round of SS197 made such a graphic fatal wound on a living animal, where a round nosed bullet from the same distance could have potentially bounced off the skull.

                Lightweight, very dependable, low recoil, high capacity, accurate, low maintainence and very easy field stripping. How are these bad things?
                I've killed 2 (medium-sized hogs), and with both I put several rounds of ss192 (this is the hollow-point round that tumbles and does not fragment like the SS197) into them. Not sure how many it actually would have taken to kill them, but they were dead when I walked up.

                The first one I shot I hit 2 times right off the bat,(straight into the side) missed with 2 and then put about 4 more in. It was not moving away from me after the first 2 (it was moving in kind of a circular out of control movement), but I was rapid firing so I killed dirt with shots 3 and 4. Shots 5-8 were all over it

                The 2nd hog was a headshot (from the side) with round one and the next 4 were all hits in the side and then belly. It didn't move after the first shot.

                These were both medium sized ferral hogs shot at dusk using the laser and the light on the M6. I normally hunt with a Russian Nagan and a .45 Baby Eagle. The weekend I got these I had forgotten my Nagant ammo so decided to try something different. Glad I did...It was a freaking blast to hunt hogs this way.


                I always laugh when people badmouth the Five-seveN.... I have seen what it does to flesh, and it's definitly something to have respect for. The cool thing is I have also shot squirrel with it and it just leaves a little hole with ss192. A gun that you can realistically hunt hog and squirrel with is one kick *** gun indeed.

                Now, some are curious as to the wound pattern. In the Squirrels, it's just a 5.7 hole straight through. In the hogs broadside it's a small entrance hole and a nasty cavity, but as you would expect the round stays in. How deep depends on what it hit. I didn't get exactly surgical so I can only tell you that the couple we looked at (one we actually cut open which unfortunatly for me was a gutshot that was just ugly as hell) were pretty impressive and about what you would expect from a .223 really. Honestly, in larger animals it ends up similar to, but below a .223, but the round stays amazingly unhurt. I actually have one round that was inside one of the hogs that we picked up a few months later in the spot where it rotted and aside from the rifleing it looks like you could stick it back in a shell and refire it.
                I went out into the South Dakota wilderness this morning to shoot some of my 35 and 40 grain reloads (all functioned PERFECTLY with no failures of any kind with brass trimmed to 1.128 and 6.5 grn of HS-6 [OAL on the 35 - 1.46, 40grn 1.58])

                Interesting though, as I was walking the 2+ miles back to my truck I stepped in a hole and sank up to my calf. The ground felt kind of strange and started to move. Something seemed to bite into my sole. Sensing that something was TERRIBLY wrong I pulled my foot out of my boot just in time to watch something furry and loud pull my boot underground.

                I went to the hole and was rushed by a 20 lb badger. I opened up with the 5-7. First round took the top of the skull off. I dug out the hole and found several more badgers. I shot them all in the hole (SD law alows Badgers and other varmits/predators to be shot essentially at will) and then cut them open to see the damage.

                It looked like a bomb went off in them. To see what a .45 +P+ would do, I shot one in the flesh around the shoulder. Blew it out the back. However the wound channel was not as impressive as with the 35 & 40 V-Max, probably because the badger was not thick enough for the 230grn hollowpoint to expand enough. The .45 just made a really clean hole through and through. I was unable to find much of either weight V-Max (just little pieces here and there, most still in the badger, depending on angle of entry).

                In my opinion I think this round has GREAT possibilities for varmiting. I can't wait for the rifles to come out for it.
                "looked like a bomb went off"

                That's what the gutshot in the hog looked like. It was just nasty...everything was mushy and shredded.
                Some asked about stopping power. Last winter, a 1200 pound moose cow was hit by a car,she was still standing up but had a broken leg. No way would she survive. State Troopers or Fish & Feather usually put the moose down. The Troopers were going to be busy for the next couple hrs,I couldn't see the moose suffering that long. I was able to drop the moose with one shot and fired a second shot once down to make sure she was down for good. I was surprised the moose went down on the first shot and I'm pretty sure she was dead before firing the second round.

                I now feel comfortable enough to carry my Five Seven full time.


                This bit of info isn't about hunting but does offer some more data on the round that a lot of people have had success hunting with - the SS197 V-Max.

                I have recently been seriously debating adopting this as a carry weapon. Obvious problem - this round has very very little documented real world data in self defense shootings. There are those that claim it is nothing more than a .22 Magnum. After extensive study and some tests of my own, I have concluded, quintessentially, that this simply isn't true and the sheer velocity of the round and its design to tumble and perform in that way similar to the 5.56x45 NATO (.223) round does infact make this cartridge at least potent enough to consider for real world self defense applications.

                I will outline my test here - 5 frozen gallon jugs of water at approximately 8 meters distance. Shot with 158 gr. 38 special, 124 gr 9x19mm, 180 gr. 40S&W, and lastly 40 gr SS197 5.7x28mm.

                38 spc - passed through with very little visible shock and basically a single channel
                9mm - through with a decent amount of shock
                40S&W - rather serious amount of visible shock and large exit hole
                5.7mm - I wish I has photographed it. Essentially, complete devastation from shock of nearly the entire block could be seen. Unlike any of the other rounds.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Chazz View Post
                  We have done some testing with 5.7x28mm on Level IIIA armor and it went through it like nothing, kind of scary. The price of the round remains high because FN does not allow anyone else to load the it.

                  Unless Flower Mound had just recently changed, they were not issued these as far as I know...
                  SS190 is legal for civi's to own and you will find it all day long on Gunbroker.com. It is self-regulated by FNH. However, Elite Ammunition makes much more potent ammo for the 5.7x28mm for civi's as well as a Leo-only "devastator" round. If you are LEO (or not) and carry the Five-seveN, I would highly recommend the S4M round as it is the best round ever made for the Five-seveN and it penetrates IIIa easily as well as performs marvelously on soft tissue. Unarmored targets is where there SS190 doesn't do quite as well because it is ball ammo. S4M is a hollow-point and solves this issue in Spades with nearly 2,600 fps and 405 ft-lbs of energy.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Sabre View Post
                    I hope no agency uses this crap round. Might as well use a .22.

                    http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913
                    Not that old tired link again.... *sigh*


                    His full title is Dr. Gary K. Roberts, DDS (note that he is a dentist, not a trauma surgeon). I am not aware of any credible independent source online that clearly acknowledges DocGKR as an authority on the subject of wound ballistics, let alone gunshot wounds in actual human bodies.

                    He spends a lot of time posting on the internet, and he definitely has a cult-like following on a few internet forums. He has certainly done extensive testing with bullets in ballistic gelatin, and some LE/military organizations have consulted him over the years, but that hardly puts him head-and-shoulders above the other individuals that are typically mentioned in these sorts of discussions. For example, a 28-year veteran of Houston, PD SWAT that I will mention later, who has actually shot people with guns (including the P90), and served three terms as president of the TTPOA (Texas Tactical Police Officers Association).

                    Furthermore, the individual in question (DocGKR) has not even tested any 5.7x28mm load introduced in the last 15-20 years. What he thinks about an ammo type not offered to civilians (SS190) or an ammo type discontinued 20 years ago (SS90) is utterly irrelevant to a discussion on current 5.7x28mm loads.

                    Not to mention, two days after the Fort Hood shooting occurred, this same individual was already touting the early media reports that said the killer was stopped by a female police officer who had been shot with 5.7x28mm rounds.

                    Of course, we now know that the early news reports were inaccurate and that is not what actually happened; despite her bravery, the female police officer in question was incapacitated (and nearly died) from a hit to the leg, and the killer was actually stopped by a second (male) police officer while she was lying on the ground severely wounded.

                    All of this despite the fact that DocGKR had never even tested either of the ammunition types used by the Fort Hood shooter (SS192, SS197SR); not to mention the misinformation campaign (with regards to this caliber) that he has been pushing for years on forums all over the internet.

                    More recently, he tried to discount one of EA's 5.7x28mm loads (which he has never even tested) by simply scrutinizing a blurry photo of it that he found on the internet. The man is clearly not impartial; he made up his mind on this caliber about 15 years ago when he shot gelatin with the SS90 prototype cartridge.

                    Anyway, you likely haven't read any of those (ancient) papers cited at the end of his article. Half of them discuss a 23-grain plastic-core prototype cartridge (SS90) that was discontinued 20 years ago. The two or three other papers on that list (discussing SS190) are irrelevant from the get-go, in light of the massive amount of verifiable information available on the caliber's performance in actual human bodies (as opposed to a simulant).

                    Papers aside, nothing else in that article was substantiated in any way. Even the picture in the post is extremely outdated (the projectile pictured is the SS90 prototype). Also, the statement that the 5.7x28mm performs "at best" like a .22 LR or .22 WMR is provably wrong and idiotic and further supports the popular opinion amongst 5.7x28mm owners, that Dr. Roberts is either heavily biased, or wholly ignorant on the subject, or a mixture of both.


                    As far as Pat Rogers and Kyle Lamb and their comments on the efficacy of the 5.7x28mm platform; those two individuals have zero experience with the 5.7x28mm (either in testing or in shootings), so their opinions have been formed by what they have read and heard about the caliber; nothing more, nothing less.

                    Let's look at some actual verifiable accounts from people that have been in shootings with the P90 and see what they have to say:

                    http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/arti ... spx?ID=309

                    I concede that the P90 is not all things to all people. However, for what I do, as a SWAT officer in a major city, it’s a great weapon.

                    <snip>

                    The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets.

                    <snip>

                    If you operate in an environment like the one I operate in, you can’t go wrong with a P90 slung at the low-ready.

                    -- Sandy Wall of HPD (see below)



                    http://warriorsos.blogspot.com/2010/10/ ... -wall.html

                    Sandy Wall retired from Houston Police Department after 28-years. He served for 22 years on SWAT, and was a three-term president with the Texas Tactical Police Officer Association (TTPOA). He is currently the Training Director for Safariland Training Group. Sandy is the founder of the Less Lethal Solutions, Inc. and the inventor of "The Wall Banger."



                    http://www.tactical-life.com/online/tac ... firepower/

                    S.W.A.T. team commander Capt. Mohamed Lostan of the Passaic County Sheriff’s Dept. in NJ is a particularly enthusiastic supporter of the handgun and cartridge. “While our department issues .40-cal. pistols, our S.W.A.T. team is allowed to carry any handgun they want to use as long as they purchase it themselves and qualify with it, In fact, I was the first one on the team to carry the Five-seveN, although now several others do as well,” he continued. Lostan definitely knows his way around firearms. In addition to his 23 years with the sheriff’s department and current position he also served in the U.S. Army in the 3rd Division Recon Unit and the 82nd Airborne Division.

                    “I was so impressed by the 5.7×28mm cartridge used in the P90 that I asked permission for S.W.A.T. team members to be able to carry Five-seveN pistols if we purchased them on our own.”

                    Two more examples:

                    http://web.archive.org/web/200209030...c529800ad.html (Summary: Duluth, GA police with FN Five-seveN pistols shot and killed a man holed up in his garage shooting at them with a .357 Magnum revolver)

                    http://www.dui1.com/DuiCaseLawDetail829.htm (Summary: Sioux Falls, SD police officer with a P90 shot a man in the arm through a bedroom door and he dropped his weapon and surrendered)

                    The best known case involving U.S. police would still be the aforementioned shooting in Houston, TX, which is supported by the article from Sandy Wall, who noted that the SS190 bullet performed well (as confirmed by autopsy) and compared its performance to a 9x19mm 115-grain JHP +P+.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      SO much hype out there seeks to blend the 5.7 pistol with the P90 results, and the two things are separate.

                      From what I can see velocity and penetration from the pistol is around 66% of what the P90 does.

                      Some of the hype (from people selling custom ammo) claims that the 5.7 pistol with some ammo rivals the M4 (but for some reason the pistol gets super duper ammo and the M4 does not ?? huh ?) , but the same attention to the projectile should give the M4 a huge advantage over the P90 and the 5.7 pistol with the exception of the 50 round mag (illegal in Ohio for civvies) that the P90 can use.
                      Just pay your dues, and be quiet :-)

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Sotex View Post
                        Uhmm....OK. But Dr. Roberts IS a recognized subject matter expert on terminal ballistics. I understand that not everyone there is.
                        Dr. Roberts DDS


                        Before adopting the P90, the USSS reliability tested the P90, it had only two malfunctions in 50,000 rounds out of 5 different guns. They stated in their report form the James J. Reilly Secret Service Training Center that the P90 is the most reliable weapon ever tested by that facility.

                        Another interesting point that comes form this testing is that Dr. Fackler told the Secret Service before the tests that this system is ineffective. The Secret Service on the other hand had this to say... "While we respect Dr. Fackler's opinion, we have found this system to be a extremely effective system and we feel confident adopting it, we find that the 5.7x28mm system supports all claims made by FN concerning the effectiveness of this system"

                        I would be careful of anyone who claims to know this system after only having fired one round in testing. To make the statement that Dr. Roberts does undermines his credibility and that of the people in the ballistic community. Gelatin is not human tissue. Dr. Fackler has been wrong before and I believe he wrong here as well. The proof is in the adoption of this system by the US Federal Government as well as over 40 countries across the globe.

                        Fact: The expert told the Secret Service the round would not be effective.
                        Fact: The Secret Service did their own tests
                        Fact: The Secret Service, though they respected his opinion, said he was wrong.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by aewegner View Post
                          I don't know, I have seen some wicked stuff from a P90 and that is a great round IMO. I had some fun with one over in Iraq, one of the contractor kids had one and let me rip a mag off when I was running a range over there.
                          These comments come from someone with first-hand experience. These are to be listened to, not comments regurgitated from interweb hearsay or a dentist who is woefully ignorant of the platform.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Penetrator View Post
                            Dr. Roberts DDS


                            Before adopting the P90, the USSS reliability tested the P90, it had only two malfunctions in 50,000 rounds out of 5 different guns. They stated in their report form the James J. Reilly Secret Service Training Center that the P90 is the most reliable weapon ever tested by that facility.

                            Another interesting point that comes form this testing is that Dr. Fackler told the Secret Service before the tests that this system is ineffective. The Secret Service on the other hand had this to say... "While we respect Dr. Fackler's opinion, we have found this system to be a extremely effective system and we feel confident adopting it, we find that the 5.7x28mm system supports all claims made by FN concerning the effectiveness of this system"

                            I would be careful of anyone who claims to know this system after only having fired one round in testing. To make the statement that Dr. Roberts does undermines his credibility and that of the people in the ballistic community. Gelatin is not human tissue. Dr. Fackler has been wrong before and I believe he wrong here as well. The proof is in the adoption of this system by the US Federal Government as well as over 40 countries across the globe.

                            Fact: The expert told the Secret Service the round would not be effective.
                            Fact: The Secret Service did their own tests
                            Fact: The Secret Service, though they respected his opinion, said he was wrong.
                            And this thread is NOT about the..................P90 :-). And the USSS does a LOT of things as I understand it, and adding the P90 to their toolbox probably makes perfect sense, but did they throw away all the OTHER tools in the box when they did ?? UM NO.

                            Has the USSS adopted the 5.7 pistol ??

                            Bill
                            Just pay your dues, and be quiet :-)

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by RSGSRT View Post
                              Since we're talking about calibers that lack stopping power
                              Let me stop you right here... there is no such thing as "stopping power".


                              Dr. Di Maio, a forensic pathologist with over 40 years experience in his field, is recognized by numerous independent sources as the nation's leading authority on gunshot wounds. Drawing on his experience and credibility, he illustrates how illogical the common obsession with bullet diameter and/or expansion is, and stresses shot placement and medical response time as being much more critical in the following quotes:

                              "One cannot examine the wounds in a body and say that the individual was shot with a hollow-point rather than a solid-lead bullet."

                              "Is there any situation in which a hollow-point handgun bullet will invariably stop an individual “dead in his tracks”? Yes, if the bullet injures a vital area of the brain, the brain stem, or the cervical spinal cord. But any bullet, regardless of style or caliber, injuring these organs will cause instant incapacitation. It is the nature of the structure injured, not the nature of the bullet, that causes the incapacitation."

                              "There is no objective proof that in real-life situations mushrooming of a bullet plays a significant role in increasing lethality or the “stopping power” of the bullet."

                              "In reality, the speed at which a wounded individual is transported to the hospital is a greater determining factor as to whether the individual will live or die than the type of ammunition used."


                              So "stopping power" is dictated by shot placement and has virtually nothing to do with bullet size, energy, etc. The miniscule size difference between one tiny pistol bullet (5.7mm) and another tiny pistol bullet (9mm, etc) is irrelevant. They are both tiny pistol bullets, and their performance depends on shot placement.

                              "In regard to charges that hollow-point ammunition is “more lethal”, in an unpublished study of over 75 fatalities from hollow-point ammunition by the author, he was unable to demonstrate any death that would not have occurred if the bullet had been an all-lead bullet. As to increased severity of wounding, this is purely theoretical. To this day, the author cannot distinguish a wound by a hollow-point bullet from that by a solid-lead bullet of the same caliber until recovery of the actual bullet."


                              The fact that the typical pistol bullet is smaller than a thimble and creates a permanent cavity even smaller still; if the bullet strikes a vital structure, the victim will likely be stopped/killed. If the bullet does not strike a vital structure, the victim will likely not be stopped/killed. A pistol bullet will not achieve substantial blood loss from a flesh wound, regardless of its caliber. To quote Dr. Di Maio again, from the same reference:

                              "Since the brain can function for 10 to 15 seconds without oxygen, even if all blood is cut off by the wound, the individual can function for this time period. If the injury does not shut off the flow of blood to the brain completely, an individual will be capable of normal activity until they lose approximately 25% of their total blood volume. The amount of time necessary for this to happen can vary from a few seconds (plus the 10 to 15 second oxygen reserve of the brain), to minutes, to hours depending on the structures injured, compensatory mechanisms of the body and attempts to staunch the bleeding by the victim. The fact that an individual can be mortally wounded, yet still be capable of aggressive actions and a threat, sometimes for a prolonged amount of time, is not appreciated by the public whose concepts of shootings is derived from television and the movies."

                              Here is an example that speaks directly to the incorrect assumption that "if he had used a bigger caliber bullet it might have nicked a vital orgam." LAPD officer Stacy Lim was shot in the chest with a .357 Magnum revolver:

                              http://www.lapdonline.org/inside_the...sic_view/27327

                              (emphasis added)

                              "The bullet ravaged her upper body when it nicked the lower portion of her heart, damaged her liver, destroyed her spleen, and exited through the center of her back, still with enough energy to penetrate her vehicle door, where it was later found. Critically wounded, the officer brought up her weapon and fired one round which struck her assailant. He then turned and ran, but the officer followed him and fired three more rounds, which hit and fatally wounded the gunman."


                              So in summary, shot placement is everything.

                              The Five-seveN pistol firing a nearly inch-long, tumbling projectile at nearly 2,600fps and 405ft-lbs of energy (EA's 28gr S4M) is more than sufficient to stop a human threat.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by DAL View Post
                                The round was designed for the purpose of penetrating Level III body armor. In my opinion, that makes it unsuitable for law-enforcement use, except in specialized situations. You want your armor to stop your duty round and the duty rounds of other officers.
                                That is a good point and probably why the Five-seveN pistol is used more by SWAT teams with a special purpose than duty officers. However, this problem could be alleviated by carrying two rounds of ammo, one that is armor penetrating and one that is designed just for tissue damaged and not AP.

                                And before somebody mentions the lack of need for an armor penetrating round by a civilian or officer..



                                - Mark Wilson shot the Tyler courthouse attacker repeatedly with his .45 ACP carry pistol. It had no effect and he was killed as a result.

                                - LAPD police officers shot the North Hollywood bank robbers dozens of times with pistols and even shotguns. Neither had any effect and

                                nearly 20 police officers and civilians were injured as a result.

                                - At the start of a 25-minute San Francisco shootout, James Guelff of SFPD shot the attacker repeatedly with his revolver. It had no effect

                                and he was killed as a result. The attacker went on to shoot several others.


                                http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/04/08/ny. ... index.html (used by the Binghamton shooter in a rampage that killed 13)

                                http://www.wsoctv.com/news/21482755/detail.html (used by a home invader)

                                http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/apr/06 ... roof-vests (commentary on the string of recent crimes committed while using body armor)

                                http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local ... 12787.html (used by the suspect in the recent VA mass shootings)

                                http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7000 ... illed.html (used by an army vet in full uniform, shot and wounded a police officer)

                                http://www.dailynews.com/breakingnews/ci_12060413 (used in the commission of a California homicide)

                                http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/04/04/pit ... index.html (used by the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania shooter who killed 3 police officers in a

                                standoff)

                                http://www.insidesocal.com/sgvcrime/201 ... ed-bu.html (used by a gang member in Ontario who took a woman hostage, pointed a gun at police

                                officers before being killed)

                                http://www.odmp.org/officer/736-officer ... uis-guelff (carjacking suspect wore a vest and helmet, shot and killed a police officer, wounded

                                3 others)

                                http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/2 ... t-revealed (shooter in New Zealand wore a homemade vest, killed one and wounded 3 others)


                                I think an officer carrying a Five-seveN pistol with a fragmenting round designed to penetrate 12 inches into tissue while fragmenting (EA's PII round), and having a backup magazine with armor penetrating rounds should the need arise, is perfect preparation and solves the issue of carrying a loaded round that can defeat your own armor. Considering Five-seveN ammo weighs 50% less than 9mm, an extra mag will be no sweat. In fact, he/she could carry one extra mag with the 1.5in extension offering 30 rounds with one mag change. That definitely would have fixed the Hollywood robbers' wagons - and good.

                                Comment

                                MR300x250 Tablet

                                Collapse

                                What's Going On

                                Collapse

                                There are currently 17519 users online. 509 members and 17010 guests.

                                Most users ever online was 26,947 at 08:36 PM on 12-29-2019.

                                Welcome Ad

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X