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  • Prep for Basic LE sniper course

    In few months from now, I'll be attending basic law enforcement sniper/precision scoped rifle course.

    Since only thing I know and having limited experience in precision rifle shooting is from occasional hunting trips, I reached out to our Blackdog for his help. After exchanging few messages, I was able to get most of stuff I needed to prepare for the course.

    Equipment: I started with my own rifle that's been sitting in my safe for past 4 years, Remington M700 Police Sniper 26 inch barrel in .308. I originally had Millett Tactical scope, but after discussing with Blackdog, I decided to go with Burris XTR 3-12X50 Mil Dot Illuminated scope. Since my budget was limited, I couldn't go with Leupold MK4 series or Nightforce. I received Burris scope few days back and I must say that I am very impressed with the quality (MADE IN THE USA!) and clarity of the scope.

    Ammo: For this range session, I used Hornady 168 grain .308. (again, this was recommended by Blackdog).

    On Saturday, I took my rifle and the new scope out to the range, sighted the scope at 100 yards. I've fired total of 12 shots and once scope was zeroed in, all 9 shots were touching each other.

    I will be back to the range again this coming weekend just to do a cold bore shot to get the reference and 200 yard shoot to see the difference from 100 to 200 yard shot groups.

    BIG THANKS GOES TO YOU BLACKDOG!

  • #2
    Sounds great! You should have a very good time! Whose course are you taking?

    As for 200 yard groups, if your shooting sub MOA at 100, no reason to believe that it shouldn't remain the sub MOA at 200 yards. Your dope will change slightly however, but a simple roughly 2.25 MOA adjustment and you will be just fine.

    For your set up, the only thing I find to be a big advantage is a shorter muzzle length. However you really only tend to notice this in advanced courses when there is a lot of stalking and alternate shooting positions going on.

    Have fun!
    The comments made herein are those solely of author and in no way reflect the opinions of any other person, agency or other entity.

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    • #3
      Glad to hear you are squared away!
      "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
      8541tactical.com - Ammo Wallets

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      • #4
        Surf,

        I'll be taking the course offered by the neighboring agency. Once I'm done with this course successfully, I'll sign up for either Storm Mountain or Blackwater/U.S. Training Center course.

        Blackdog, as to range finder, what would you recommend?

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        • #5
          Nice! FWIW, the last CS course that I attended there were 2 BW guys there. I asked them why they were at this course because I thought since the worked as BW employees overseas they got employee rates. They both laughed and said that they do get an "employee rate" but they wanted to attend a good CS school. I found that to be ironic and took it FWIW. Of course that was a few years ago. Just food for thought.
          The comments made herein are those solely of author and in no way reflect the opinions of any other person, agency or other entity.

          Surfs Up on youtube!

          Specialized Services Group on Facebook!

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          • #6
            Originally posted by M1garand View Post
            Surf,

            I'll be taking the course offered by the neighboring agency. Once I'm done with this course successfully, I'll sign up for either Storm Mountain or Blackwater/U.S. Training Center course.
            Take a look at Rifles Only in TX.

            Blackdog, as to range finder, what would you recommend?
            I use a Leica LRF1200 Scan. Zeiss also puts out a very nice unit in the mid price range. It's not really needed for LE Work. Something that will range to 600 will work well for duty. One of my colleges uses a cheap Bushnell. It's not sufficient for long range shooting through.
            "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
            8541tactical.com - Ammo Wallets

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            • #7
              Good info. I too am attending a basic LE sniper course at the end of April This is my question... My dept. provided me w/ a brand new Rem. 700 and all the goodies. Since it is brand new I am sure it has a little break in time. What are your suggestions? One guy told me 1 round clean and the repeat till 5 rounds are fired. Then 2 rounds clean and repeat for 5 rounds or five times... Then 3 rounds clean.... you get the point till 50 rounds are expended. Does this sound good to you guys/gals w/ precision/sniper experience? Thanks and stay safe!

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              • #8
                Originally posted by sscpd223 View Post
                Good info. I too am attending a basic LE sniper course at the end of April This is my question... My dept. provided me w/ a brand new Rem. 700 and all the goodies. Since it is brand new I am sure it has a little break in time. What are your suggestions? One guy told me 1 round clean and the repeat till 5 rounds are fired. Then 2 rounds clean and repeat for 5 rounds or five times... Then 3 rounds clean.... you get the point till 50 rounds are expended. Does this sound good to you guys/gals w/ precision/sniper experience? Thanks and stay safe!
                Bull****!

                Load-shoot-repeat. Clean when it won't hold a group.

                A factory Remington will "wear in" over time. It will get more accurate as you shoot it. The clean/shoot/repeat routine will do nothing more than waste your time, cleaning products, and run a chance of damaging the rifle if the cleaning is not done perfectly (most of the break in routines I have seen are not done properly).

                We have three LTR's on the department. One was "broken in" by the shoot/clean method. The other two were cleaned and shot. There is no difference in accuracy between the two. I contacted Remington when we got the rifles. Remington does not recommend any break in of their rifles.
                Last edited by Blackdog F4i; 03-15-2011, 10:27 AM.
                "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
                8541tactical.com - Ammo Wallets

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                • #9
                  the only thing the break in procedure and over cleaning will get you is a barrel worn out or damaged sooner rather than later. I havent cleaned one of my AI's in over 500 rounds and 6 range sessions. The gun still doesnt shoot above .75MOA @ 100 and there's never a "flier".

                  Trigger time will get you the experiance needed to read your rifle so you know when it's telling you it needs a cleaning!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    There's something to be said for cleaning a rifle often, and not cleaning a rifle that often.

                    Most military snipers I've run in to don't clean their rifle that often, and are capable of shooting tight groups. Bench rest shooters clean every round, and often shoot even tighter. Military snipers don't often have the ability to clean often, but most are just as anal-retentive about rifle cleanliness as the next guy, when they get the chance.

                    I prefer a happy medium. Every 20 rounds, I run a brush with carbon cleaner on it about 10-15 times, then 2-3 dry patch. Then after every range session, I run carbon and copper cleaner through it. My groups are consistent, and around .5-.75 moa.

                    I've only been through one course, so take that for what it is.

                    There's plusses and minuses for every train of thinking, I feel.

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                    • #11
                      Bear this in mind. With my factory Remington it would take 10-20 rounds after cleaning for it to return to it's "peak" accuracy. Sure it was still sub-MOA after that first fouler or two. But it wasn't down to dotting the "i" until it had some rounds through the tube.

                      So if you are cleaning after every 20 rounds.....how much of your rifles accuracy are you actually seeing? How much barrel life are you burning without ever seeing the rifles true potential?

                      Most cleaning is done because the shooter needs it. Not because the rifle needs it.

                      I would leave military Snipers out of the picture. 99.99% of them do what they were taught because it was what they were taught. It is how the military trains, fights and lives. You don't question orders, so if the schoolhouse tells you to clean after every box of ammo, then that's what you do. If not God kills a kitten and Jodie comes over and screws your girlfriend. It wasn't until I was well out of the military and re-learned a lot of the science behind long range shooting that I began to realize how much bull**** gets passed along through generations of shooters because it was "figured" that way back in the day.

                      I can't really comment on benchrest shooters, because I am not one. I don't have a benchrest rifle. I don't shoot in benchrest competition. I do hear those guys replace barrels faster than I replace brass. Their idea of accuracy is a little different than mine and most of their rifles would fail to function if you puff a little dust in the breech.

                      My main rifle of choice is a AI AE MkII. You can bet that with all the hell I went through to get that rifle, I am not about to do anything that will harm it's utility. I could care less if I get a scratch or scrape. But the accuracy is the top of my concern. If I would let a $4000+ rifle (not including optics) go 500+ rounds without cleaning the bore.....you think there may be something to it? I am seriously thinking about running it to 1000 just to see if I can get away without a loss of accuracy.

                      Think about it. If the average .308 can go to 10,000 rounds (which they have) and I am only cleaning every 500 rounds. That means I will only clean the bore 20 times during it's service life. Now if you clean every 20 rounds, that's 500 times! Ask any true custom rifle builder if he has seen more barrels shot out or worn out from improper cleaning procedures.
                      "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
                      8541tactical.com - Ammo Wallets

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                      • #12
                        Blackdog and others thanks for the info. I shoot old military rifles from the benchrest w/ cast bullets. I don't clean the bore until it becomes leaded. Always shoot better that way I found. I usually clean the breech and bolt a couple times a season and never touch the bore. I have heard that Criterion's break in for the Garand replacement barrels they make is shoot 50 rounds. Then enjoy life. I am ordering one soon so I'll find out.
                        Agree w/ the overcleaning part. Excessive field stripping and cleaning seems to accelerate wear. Take care!

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                        • #13
                          Gale McMillan commented on cleaning, and how people cleaning their barrels makes him money.
                          For those that haven't read this:
                          http://www.6mmbr.com/gailmcmbreakin.html


                          Originally from this forum:
                          http://www.snipercountry.com/Article...el_BreakIn.asp
                          "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
                          -John Adams


                          Disclaimer: My statements are personal opinions, and in no way reflect those of my agency.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Blackdog F4i View Post
                            I would leave military Snipers out of the picture. 99.99% of them do what they were taught because it was what they were taught. It is how the military trains, fights and lives. You don't question orders, so if the schoolhouse tells you to clean after every box of ammo, then that's what you do. If not God kills a kitten and Jodie comes over and screws your girlfriend. It wasn't until I was well out of the military and re-learned a lot of the science behind long range shooting that I began to realize how much bull**** gets passed along through generations of shooters because it was "figured" that way back in the day.
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                            This paragraph is so full of win, it bears repeating!!!

                            Pat Rogers has often said in print that the Marine Corps ruined more weapons by overzealous cleaning than any other method. Just because the military (or XYZ branch) does something doesn't mean it is the right or best way. Institutional inertia runs rampant.
                            "It is better to avoid than to fight, better to deter than to kill. But.....it is better to kill than to die, or watch an innocent slaughtered, because you didn't have the wherewithal to defend them." - M. A.

                            "We should bear in mind that, in general, it is the object of our newspapers rather to create a sensation-to make a point-than to further the cause of truth."-Edgar Allan Poe(1809-1849)

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Blackdog F4i View Post
                              Most cleaning is done because the shooter needs it. Not because the rifle needs it.
                              I disagree with you on this, but I understand your intent. We'll agree to disagree, I'm afraid.

                              I would leave military Snipers out of the picture. 99.99% of them do what they were taught....
                              Again, understand. I'm not talking about a fresh 0317, or ASI B4, but seasoned 18B's or 0317's who went to LE agencies. The ones who have taught me have readily admitted they don't clean simply because they don't get the opportunity. Either way, what your saying holds weight, too.

                              I can't really comment on benchrest shooters, because I am not one.
                              I've got a few friends who benchrest, and put 15-20K rounds through a heavy barreled rifle without changing the barrel, cleaning every 1-5 rounds. If it aint broke, don't fix it.

                              My main rifle of choice is a AI AE MkII.
                              Very nice rifle. I mainly shoot a 700 USR, w/20" Rock Creek barrel, rifle basix trigger and glass bedded stock. I like it, it's a good piece of equipment.

                              I think the thing we can agree on is if you are going to put away a clean gun, no point in shooting 500 rounds between cleanings. You're not going to see accurate results you need when it comes time to make the important shot. I tend to put away my rifle clean, so I like to shoot it like I'll have to, should I ever have to. If you're going to put it away dirty, might as well shoot it dirty. Key to shooting is consistency, right?

                              I definitely don't disagree with your train of thinking, honestly. I like to make an educated decision, and I've decided that 20-40 rounds per cleaning is best for me. If 500 is best for you, that's cool...I'm not pulling the trigger on your rifle, you are, and you know your rifle better than I do!

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