Leader

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Five Seven as a duty weapon?

Collapse

300x250 Mobile

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Five Seven as a duty weapon?

    I've seen tons of Officer's laugh at the sight of a Five Seven being used as a duty weapon and never really understood why. The only thing I could think of is because it's a unique and strong caliber.

    It's light, quick, the recoil is pretty much nothing. It looks sleek, intimidating, and it's powerful. Maybe it does -too- much damage?

    Prospective.

  • #2
    I'm not on a firearms committee or a firearms expert by any means, but I would have to imagine its the chances of the round going through-and-through are much greater than a hollow point pistol caliber round.

    I'm also not sure as to what the cost of the gun is, but .223 ammo is more expensive. It might just be cost prohibitive.

    Comment


    • #3
      They run for around $1100, or so I've seen around. The only remotely LE Affiliated person I've seen carry a Five Seven, was a Class A Security Guard driving an Armored Car, and he said he loved it because it was so light and had such low recoil.

      I do see where it might be a liability for Departments given the way the round works, and how expensive it might be. If those are the only reasons, I am still impressed by this weapon in general.
      Prospective.

      Comment


      • #4
        My agency specifies 9mm (though frowned upon), 40SW, or 45ACP for duty guns. Off duty/backup may be as small as 38spec or 380.

        The 5seven worked pretty well on battlestar galactica, and perhaps on thin skinned game like a woodchuck, but I've never heard of any law enforcement tests. The round (not the pistol) may do well for a SWAT team going up against an armored target, with the non-expanding penetrator ammo of course.
        I am concerned for the security of our great Nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within.

        Douglas MacArthur

        Comment


        • #5
          Strong caliber? Too powerful? The bullet hits with less energy than a 9mm. In fact, I would have concerns about the round being a reliable stopper. Good penetration sure, good for stopping a threat quickly?... I have my doubts.

          Comment


          • #6
            The argument could be made that with less recoil you can spend more rounds with ease, which would contribute to stopping power. But I suppose in the LE Field you'd want less rounds and more stopping power, rather than more rounds. Less of a mess.
            Prospective.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Dingo990 View Post
              Strong caliber? Too powerful? The bullet hits with less energy than a 9mm. In fact, I would have concerns about the round being a reliable stopper. Good penetration sure, good for stopping a threat quickly?... I have my doubts.
              My thoughts exactly.
              "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms. . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson

              Comment


              • #8
                The Ft. Hood shooter was using it and it stopped quite a few people. It is close to a .223 round so you will have some stopping power if your not using FMJ. I have shot it and I like it. The only thing I see wrong with it is ammo is very high.....

                Comment


                • #9
                  Ballistics, Ballistics, Ballistics.

                  Do some research on them and you will see why officers dislike them.

                  I continually see the Ft. Hood argument come up. Let me just say that more people have been killed by the .22, .25 or .32 every year than have been killed by the 5.7 in the US. In fact I would bet that if you totalled worldwide casualties caused by the 5.7 the .22LR would still have it beat over the same time period. For some reason though I don't see guys clamoring to replace their .45's with and of the mousegun calibers.

                  Anytime a new cartridge comes out, it will gain fans. Guys have to have the latest and greatest. Me? I am just fine with the .45ACP. It's been working for a LONG time and just keeps getting better. It's about the best "do all" caliber I have ever seen.
                  "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
                  8541tactical.com - Ammo Wallets

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    ---------------------
                    Last edited by tp2020; 03-24-2016, 02:08 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Blackdog F4i View Post
                      Ballistics, Ballistics, Ballistics.

                      Do some research on them and you will see why officers dislike them.

                      I continually see the Ft. Hood argument come up. Let me just say that more people have been killed by the .22, .25 or .32 every year than have been killed by the 5.7 in the US.
                      I completely agree. You may remember my son's police action shooting, he fired 5 times at point blank range, hitting center mass every time with his .40, and the perp was still fighting. A few weeks before that I road with him on a shift, and one of our runs was a homicide where a neighbor dropped his charging next door neighbor with one shot from a .25 auto with FMJ's.

                      502
                      Retired Lawdawg & Proud IMPD Papa!




                      "Justice is the one thing you should always find"
                      Toby Keith

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by tp2020 View Post
                        Blackdog although most of your statement I agree with myself I carry a 1911 but to compare a relativley new round to a 22, 32, or 25 not so much. They are very cheap guns and ammo not to mention readily available where as the 5.7 isn't I've never seen ammo for it anywhere around where I live so ofcourse those rounds you mentioned will have more "kills" to there name for availability alone.
                        You missed the point.

                        What I was trying to explain is the folks that use the Ft. Hood murders to show the effectiveness of the 5.7 are missing a basis for their comparisons. If I had a choice between a 5.7 and a .25 auto, I would take the 5.7. If you asked me to trade a proven combat handgun for a 5.7 (i.e. 1911, G17, G21, etc.) I would tell you that you are insane.
                        "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
                        8541tactical.com - Ammo Wallets

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Well judging by your avatar, you're a Marine or a Former Marine, you trained on the .45ACP, right? I'd be accustomed to the .45ACP if I spent x amount of years using it in the Corps too. I do agree with you though, the .45ACP overall is flexible and just keeps on impressing. I myself have only fired a .40S&W, 9mm, 5.7, and .22 so I can't really contribute to the .45ACP, but it's somewhat obvious it trumps the 5.7.
                          Prospective.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I handled a FiveseveN once at a gun shop. I manipulated the gun, played with the magazine, etc. It felt like an airsoft gun. It felt cheap to me and the trigger was absolutely terrible. The grip is very long and uncomfortable, and unable to be held and shot effectively by people with small hands (I could barely reach the trigger).

                            Setting that aside, as Blackdog pointed out, the 5.7 is one of those fly-by-night calibers that gains popularity for no logical reason other than it's the "it" caliber. Keep in mind that the FiveseveN is the gun that first became publicly hyped and loved after it appeared in the Playstation game 007:Goldeneye. That's right- it is a gun that was made famous by mall ninjas. Just like how the SCAR and Vector (Kriss Super-V) now are absolutely loved by the mall ninjas due to COD:Modern Warfare 2.

                            This isn't to say that the 5.7mm round doesn't have merit within it's niche. The 5.7 was developed out of the .224 Boz cartridge from some years back. It can penetrate soft body armor and has very high velocity. I just don't feel that it's a practical LE sidearm round. It is a rifle round condensed down to fill a sub-gun role. It's a sub-gun round. The fact that FNH made a pistol to shoot the cartridge seems more like a novelty than anything.
                            I know of no officer that carries a FiveseveN pistol. So, if the SHTF, and you need more ammo, you're SOL because all of your fellow officers have 9mm, .40, .357sig or .45 (supposing that the department requires you to buy your own weapon). If it turns out that you are in a department that does not provide weapons, there is a tendency for officers to buy similar caliber weapons. Our county's S.O. doesn't issue, so all the officers have their own weapons. 75% carry .45ACP (Sig, Glock, HK, Para 1911's), the rest carry .40S&W (HK USP, Glock, M&P). Another department right next door doesn't issue either, and 90% of them carry .40S&W. I'm sure that if you're referring to an actual department that you're on/being hired by/looking at, most of the officers will be carrying matching calibers, and most likely no one will have a 5.7mm. If someone DOES have one, it's most likely only one guy.

                            Ultimately, if you feel like you trust your life with it and you absolutely believe in the merit of the gun and you HAVE to have it, then so be it. Just know that you're probably not going to find much support in that endeavor, and you're gonna be banging your head against a brick wall if you try to rally people to the cause.
                            Last edited by Reedo; 09-23-2010, 08:15 PM.
                            "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
                            -John Adams


                            Disclaimer: My statements are personal opinions, and in no way reflect those of my agency.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Reedo View Post
                              Setting that aside, as Blackdog pointed out, the 5.7 is one of those fly-by-night calibers that gains popularity for no logical reason other than it's the "it" caliber. Keep in mind that the FiveseveN is the gun that first became publicly hyped and loved after it appeared in the Playstation game 007:Goldeneye. That's right- it is a gun that was made famous by mall ninjas. Just like how the SCAR and Vector (Kriss Super-V) now are absolutely loved by the mall ninjas due to COD:Modern Warfare 2.

                              This isn't to say that the 5.7mm round doesn't have merit within it's niche. The 5.7 was developed out of the .224 Boz cartridge from some years back. It can penetrate soft body armor and has very high velocity. I just don't feel that it's a practical LE sidearm round. It is a rifle round condensed down to fill a sub-gun role. It's a sub-gun round. The fact that FNH made a pistol to shoot the cartridge seems more like a novelty than anything.
                              Personally, I'm not familiar with any mall-ninja background for the Five-seveN, although I do remember playing Goldeneye years ago. The first I heard of the Five-seveN was after looking into the ballistics of the 5.7x28 out of curiosity about the possible intended uses for the bullpup P-90 SMG. I found out about the handgun, and assumed it was just a unique thing that wouldn't catch on at all. A friend then borrowed one for shooting in a match, and that made both of us re-evaluate it. It had so little recoil/muzzle climb that in the timed shooting events it was a serious advantage, and he won the handgun stages easily. It was also quite accurate out to 50 yards. We decided that it was certainly suited to competition, but for practical applications I remain skeptical; I preferred (and still do) my trusty .45 ACP.

                              I think the key is that while the 5.7x28 has more than double the muzzle velocity of the 9x19, and shoots much flatter, the impact in ft./lbs is still much the same. The larger mass of the 9mm with the slower speed is equal to the lower mass and higher velocity of the 5.7. Significant advantages of the 5.7x28 are greater magazine capacity, much higher velocity, flatter trajectory, inherent accuracy, and greater penetration capability. However, many of these are countered by LE needs.

                              If the 5.7 were widely adopted, I would expect to see the following problem: difficulty achieving repeatable controlled penetration and expansion through multiple layers/different mediums, and difficulty creating an effective duty round that would serve equally well in the varied situations that are a part of LE work.

                              The 5.7x28mm uses a .224 caliber bullet of not more than 40 grains, essentially a lightweight .223 Rem bullet. It has to have a high velocity to achieve acceptable energy transfer. High velocity and small bullets means that if the bullet is a FMJ type, it will likely overpenetrate and do relatively little damage internally compared to a typical 9mm JHP. It is probably already handicapped by a smaller wound channel. If the bullet is a JHP, it will probably fail to penetrate windshield glass, multiple layers of heavy clothing, walls, etc. without fragmenting too much to be reliable on the other side. I haven't tested the theory, although I'd love to have the chance, but I no longer have a 5.7 available to do so. I just don't see there being ammunition available that will serve all the purposes of LE as well as the established 9x19mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP duty JHP offerings.

                              I could be wrong, but that's my take on it so far. Anybody know anything different?

                              Comment

                              MR300x250 Tablet

                              Collapse

                              What's Going On

                              Collapse

                              There are currently 3632 users online. 249 members and 3383 guests.

                              Most users ever online was 158,966 at 04:57 AM on 01-16-2021.

                              Welcome Ad

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X