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  • Mystery Gun

    Small compact, appears to be .25 ACP.

    The gun is loaded with an internal magazine, much like a bolt action rifle.

    Worn markings appeared to show a Star of David on the butt of the gun. No serial number, no model info, no patent info.

    See attached photos.
    Attached Files
    "A fanatic is one who won't change his mind, and won't change the subject." -Winston Churchill

    "I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts." -Will Rogers

    "To desire to save these wolves in society may arise from benevolence, but it must be the benevolence of a child or a fool" -Henry Fielding

  • #2
    It's not a .25.

    It is possibly this (below) from here (link): http://www.militaryradio.com/spyradio/misc_clan.html

    Gas Pistol

    [Thanks to Jim Mahaffey for finding this equipment.]

    The original owner was with TSD, and reportedly said that it was an 'assassination weapon' acquired from the Nazis, although this is thought to be unlikely, since it has been found to be a mass-produced model.

    The maker is "August Schuler in Suhl". The logo on the grips is a stylized "***". This maker is known primarily for sporting firearms from about 100 years ago.

    This model is described in "The German Encyclopedia of Firearms" (translated) as follows:
    "Starting and teargas pistol, by August Schuler in Suhl. Selfloading pocket-pistol, for a completely rimless cartridge. The pistol has neither chamber nor extractor. Ejecting the spent case takes place via gas pressure. Usable as a starting pistol with color cartridges or with gas cartridges as a self-protection weapon. Before 1939 built in two versions - 6 or 10 shots. Length 100mm. Weight 270 grams."

    Following is a description of the pistol from a friend in Germany, with an English translation. Many thanks to Reinhard Brusdeylins for this information, and the translation:

    Hier handelt es sich um die so genannte "Lacrimae-Pistole". Im AKAH-Katalog von 1939 ist die Pistole abgebildet. Hersteller war wahrscheinlich nicht die Firma August Schüler in Suhl, sondern lediglich der Vertreiber. *** steht übrigens für August Schuler Suhl. Die „Lacrimae"-Pistole war für eine Spezialpatrone eingerichtet, andere Patronen passen nicht! Diese Patronen sind noch bis in die 1950er-Jahre in Katalogen zu finden, die Waffe selbst nicht mehr. Die Lacrimae-Pistole wird geladen, indem man die Patronen von oben ins Magazin drückt. Zugeführt wird sie durch eine Feder, die im Magazin von unten gegen die Patrone drückt. Die Patronen werden durch den Gasdruck seitlich ausgeworfen. Hier handelt es sich um die so genannte "Lacrimae-Pistole".

    This is a so-called "Lacrimae pistol" ['Lacrimae' meaning 'tear gas']. In the AKAH Catalogue from 1939 there is a picture of this pistol. Company August Schuler is assumed to be not the manufacturer, but only the distributor. "***" stands for August Schuler Suhl. The Lacrimae was made for a special cartridge, other cartridges won't fit. The cartridges were in the catalogs in the 50's, the weapon itself not any more. The Lacrimae pistol is loaded by pushing the cartridges from the top into the magazine. The cartridges are loaded [into the chamber area] by a spring in the magazine below the cartridges. The cartridges are ejected to the side by gas pressure.

    It appears that the cartridge for it would be very close to .25 caliber, and the overall length about 1 inch.
    I'm guessing this one is a 6-shot version. The action is interesting: pulling the trigger causes the slide to move back. If you pull the trigger far enough, the slide is released and slams forward (rather hard!). The firing pin is *fixed* to the inside of the rear of the slide. There is a 'port' carved into the left side of the inside of the bore, where it would meet the front edge of the cartridge - I suspect this is the ejection mechanism (gas pressure would push the case out sideways to the right). The magazine is fixed in the grip - the pistol loads thru the ejection port at the top. There is a spring-loaded magazine follower. There is a safety lever on the left side, with German markings for 'safe' and 'fire'. When the safety is on, the slide is pushed back slightly, which keeps the firing pin out of the way for loading. There is a plate protruding from the right side, just under the ejection port - presumably to protect the hand while firing.

    There is a stamp on the bottom of the grip that is shaped like a shield, and has "SUHL" in it, along with an image of a hammer. This is a standard Suhl marking. Near the stamp is a marking that says "M.33" (perhaps model of 1933 ??). Also near the stamp is a marking "XX". This is possibly an Agency marking, to mean 'experimental'. I have an early-production RS-6 radio set that also has XX markings. A firearms expert in Germany said that the "XX" is not a known marking, and that legitimate German markings are well-documented. An assembly number "35" is found on the underside of the front edge of the barrel, and also on an interior surface of the slide. The grips have the "***" logo. No other markings.

    Everything is steel, except for the plastic grips, and the trigger, which is made of a non-ferrous metal (aluminum??). The barrel has a smooth bore, roughly 25 caliber. Sighting down it, there is a slight 'contraction' in the middle section of the barrel - that is, it becomes slightly narrower in the middle, by a few thousands of an inch. This contraction may be part of the ejection mechanism: If the cartridge includes a wad, then this restriction in the bore would cause a momentary increase in gas pressure, to aid in ejecting the empty cartridge.

    Two or more other variants of this pistol have been described to me (one is pictured on the web site of a European museum).
    The opinions expressed here are from the individual only and do not represent the view of any agency that the poster may be affiliated with

    Comment


    • #3
      Thank you for the response. That is the pistol I was asking about. I attempted to do some more research and have basically found the information you posted but not much else.

      The article said mass produced, I wonder how many are out there and what kind of value the gun has today.
      Last edited by Bighead; 08-07-2010, 09:26 PM.
      "A fanatic is one who won't change his mind, and won't change the subject." -Winston Churchill

      "I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts." -Will Rogers

      "To desire to save these wolves in society may arise from benevolence, but it must be the benevolence of a child or a fool" -Henry Fielding

      Comment


      • #4
        Link: Guns International listing for *** Gas Pistole, $350. More Pics
        "A fanatic is one who won't change his mind, and won't change the subject." -Winston Churchill

        "I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts." -Will Rogers

        "To desire to save these wolves in society may arise from benevolence, but it must be the benevolence of a child or a fool" -Henry Fielding

        Comment


        • #5
          wow, odd did you buy that or take it off someone?
          Last edited by Mstangfk; 08-08-2010, 07:40 AM.
          In the end we're all just chalk lines on the concrete drawn only to be washed away, for the time that I've been given, I am what I am. I'd rather you hate me for everything I am, Than have you love me for being something that Im not

          Comment


          • #6
            Was a call to pickup property. Caller's father passed away and the woman's liberal sisters wanted his firearms destroyed. I talked to her and she talked to her sisters. Thankfully, we were able to come to an agreement that kept this little oddity along with an Ithaca model 37, a first issue Colt Police Positive, and a 1908 Colt Vest Pocket .25 auto out of the furnace.
            "A fanatic is one who won't change his mind, and won't change the subject." -Winston Churchill

            "I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts." -Will Rogers

            "To desire to save these wolves in society may arise from benevolence, but it must be the benevolence of a child or a fool" -Henry Fielding

            Comment


            • #7
              damn libs! GOOD SAVE!

              I remember gun buyback programs where old widows were turning in their dead husbands WWII guns...both confiscated Nazi stuff and US stuff...damn shame
              "I don't go on "I'maworthlesscumdumpster.com" and post negative **** about cum dumpsters."
              The Tick

              "Are you referring to the secret headquarters of a fictional crime fighter or penal complex slang for a-$$hole, anus or rectum?"
              sanitizer

              "and we all know you are a poser and a p*ssy.... "
              Bearcat357 to Dinner Portion/buck8/long relief

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by crass cop View Post
                damn libs! GOOD SAVE!

                I remember gun buyback programs where old widows were turning in their dead husbands WWII guns...both confiscated Nazi stuff and US stuff...damn shame
                Crying shame that some feel good program takes quality (and often historical) pieces out of the hands of those least likely to commit a crime, in the name of crime prevention. And you know no one was telling them, "Ma'am, that 1911 that went to Europe with your husband is probably worth $2,000."
                "A fanatic is one who won't change his mind, and won't change the subject." -Winston Churchill

                "I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts." -Will Rogers

                "To desire to save these wolves in society may arise from benevolence, but it must be the benevolence of a child or a fool" -Henry Fielding

                Comment


                • #9
                  yeah...I think they were getting $100 grocery cards or something....damn libs!!!
                  "I don't go on "I'maworthlesscumdumpster.com" and post negative **** about cum dumpsters."
                  The Tick

                  "Are you referring to the secret headquarters of a fictional crime fighter or penal complex slang for a-$$hole, anus or rectum?"
                  sanitizer

                  "and we all know you are a poser and a p*ssy.... "
                  Bearcat357 to Dinner Portion/buck8/long relief

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    A friend with ATFE tells of the time he was called to a home to "get that nasty old gun out of my house"! Husband had died, gun in question was a first run Colt Single Action Army .45 Colt in excellent condition. My friend told the widow it is legal, and she could sell it through a dealer for a nice sum. (Current value more than $4-5k). She demanded he remove it!

                    It's now in the ATFE ""reference collection"".
                    "A man who has nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the existing of better men than himself."
                    John Stuart Mill

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I was talking to our firearms guys who told me about a 1911 that was in the hands of family members during WWI WWII and Korea...the family kept a journal complete with pictures of the young heroes and the gun in various places. Their grandson in his infinite wisdom turned it in for a best buy gift card. The detectives were able to salvage it and give it to a museum. While working at the desk I had a lady turn in 6 1911's and 5 custom rifles / shotguns. I told her that a gun store down the street would buy them from her and she could probably get a decent sum of money. She became upset and told me that the world would be safer with everyone disarmed...starting with the police. I told her to have a nice day then almost cried as I booked these guns for destruction.
                      "For he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer." Romans 13:4

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Which brings up the issue of ""buybacks".
                        How can a government 'buy back' that which they have never owned?

                        And what a great setup for killers - kill someone, and run down to the 'buyback, no questions asked'. You get rid of the evidence and get a gift card!
                        "A man who has nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the existing of better men than himself."
                        John Stuart Mill

                        Comment

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