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  • Glock 21 go boom

    http://www.wtov9.com/news/21907727/detail.html

    Weapon, Not Ammo, May Have Caused Deputy's Gun To Explode
    Posted: 12:01 pm EST December 9, 2009
    Updated: 11:04 pm EST December 9, 2009

    Officials in Marshall County said they've learned it could have been the weapon -- not the ammunition -- that caused a gun to explode in a deputy's hand last week.

    Chief Deputy Kevin Cecil said organizations from across the country have called him recently, saying they've had similar situations with their guns.

    "It's a combination of them wanting to know what happened … along with possible problems with their firearms," Cecil said.

    A deputy was using the .45 caliber Glock 21 for the first time at a firing range last week when the lower half exploded, breaking off the trigger, sending parts flying and injuring his hand.

    Cecil said he initially thought it was the ammunition that caused the problem, but not he's not so sure.

    He said, as time goes on, he's learned quite a bit about similar situations throughout the country.

    "We're actually adjusting our thinking a little bit. It might not just be the ammunition. There may be a certain issue with the firearm itself, so we're going to send it off to have it independently evaluated," Cecil said.

    At Shooter's in Bridgeport, Bill Monahan has a collection of guns that have exploded.

    "I've seen lots of handguns blow up over the years. Usually it's an overload that causes it. There's many different factors that could cause it, but that's the most common," Monahan said.

    He said he doesn't want to speculate on what happened with the deputy's gun, but said there are several reasons he's known a Glock to explode.

    "(With) Glocks, you can't fire lead bullets. Not saying that's what he did, but that's one of the culprits," Monahan said.

    He said he's like to take a look at the Marshall County weapon, but Cecil said he is preparing to send it to an independent evaluator to find out exactly what happened.

    "They'll know when they get to examine this gun just exactly what took place," Monahan said.

    Stay with NEWS9 and WTOV9.com for continuing coverage.


    Previous Stories:
    December 4, 2009: Pistol Explodes In Deputy's Hand
    Last edited by SCV-Sop; 12-15-2009, 12:59 AM.
    _____________
    "Corruptisima republica plurimae leges."

    "The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws."
    - Cornelius Tacitus

  • #2
    Wow suprises me I have never had any touble with a Glock... EVER!
    The most important things in life are worth fighting for.

    <--------- RAAAAAR!!!

    Comment


    • #3
      Alright, who says it was the ammo?
      Why are there so many babies on O.com? Creole, you and your buddy JPSO Recruit help me out on this one....

      * "Preach always, if necessary, use words!" St Francis of Assisi

      * Luke Chapter 6, Verses 27-36

      Comment


      • #4
        Sorry for my laco-o-glock knowledge but I don't understand why they shouldn't shoot lead bullets?!
        -"He detested failure more than anything else, even betrayal. Betrayal required intelligence and ruthlessness, failure only stupidity or lack of concentration."
        -Daniel Silva

        Comment


        • #5
          From personal experience I’ve ruined a barrel doing so, but let me qualify that.

          The rifling of the glock doesn’t cut into the bullet cleanly and lead build up can become excessive with infrequent cleaning. The build up will result in increasing pressures in the barrel/chamber.

          What happened with mine (I had been shooting lead just fine for a long time in my glock) was I cast my own bullets out of wheel weights. Anyway, I was lazy and I didn’t:
          1) size them after they were cast.
          2) lube them upon sizing them.

          The end result was lead caked the inside of the barrel to the point to looked like a smooth board and eliminated all the rifling. I caught the problem before it blew up on me, but not before the barrel started bulging out.

          This would not of happened if I wasn’t lazy and simply sized and lubed the bullets like I should have.

          Oversized unlubed lead bullets will cake lead inside the barrel of a Glock and increase pressures to the point the barrel will bulge.
          _____________
          "Corruptisima republica plurimae leges."

          "The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws."
          - Cornelius Tacitus

          Comment


          • #6
            So it would be safe to say that factory loaded lead (RNL) would have the same effect? Just trying to learn as I only shoot FMJ & JHP and I do not reload (yet).
            -"He detested failure more than anything else, even betrayal. Betrayal required intelligence and ruthlessness, failure only stupidity or lack of concentration."
            -Daniel Silva

            Comment


            • #7
              Let me give another thought on the no lead Glock warning.

              When I had my mishap:
              1) the end result was the barrel is still functional with a slight bulge near the breach that can only be noticed with running your finger over it.
              2) I put 200 or so rounds of unsized unlubed lead through it.
              3) I stopped once I noticed my mistake and cleaned the barrel immedeatly. I was able to get the lead build up out, but it took a lot of work.

              I had about the worst conditions I could have made, and it didn’t blow up, but I did damage it ever so slightly.

              Now, the gun would have likely destroyed itself if I continued to shoot it.

              A Glock can pretty much be abused and shoot thousands of rounds without cleaning if jacketed ammo is used. It will blow up if one tries to shoot thousands of lead rounds without cleaning it every hundred or so.

              If lead is shot though a Glock it has to be cleaned and you shouldn’t shoot very much.

              Solution, buy an aftermarket traditional barrel like a Storm Lake or something along those lines and don’t worry about it.

              Bear Creek makes moly coated slugs. Those are likely much better.
              _____________
              "Corruptisima republica plurimae leges."

              "The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws."
              - Cornelius Tacitus

              Comment


              • #8
                Actually, Bill T, guns sometimes do "blow up" on their own. USBP received a order of Berettas, and using only fresh factory ammo, they found the chambers starting to swell. Seems this lot of barrels had managed to 'skip' heat treating. They caught it before any Kaboom!
                Usually it is the ammo - I have a box full of defective factory (all brands) ammo, including but not limited to: no primer, no flash hole, bullet in up side down, a pin inside the case, and my personal favorite: a 12 ga slug with no projectile!
                It will be interesting to follow this - I heard that Glocks were Perfection!
                "A man who has nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the existing of better men than himself."
                John Stuart Mill

                Comment


                • #9
                  Sure thing - Springfield XD, XDM, S&W M&P, etc. etc. etc. In fact, you could start with a Springfield or Kimber 1911 - I have one with around 50,000 rounds of ammo through it - after 30 years, what could be more cost effective?

                  Brand loyalty is fine, if you are happy with your choice, I'm happy for you.

                  Repeating a lot of "magazine hype" with your personal (and therefore limited) experience is not helpful. (See the thread about the NYPD and Glocks locking up. There, the experience is with hundreds, if not thousands of guns.)
                  All makers have guns that blow up, and only scientific analysis can determine the cause. But the other makers do not claime their guns to be ""perfection"", as Glock does.
                  "A man who has nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the existing of better men than himself."
                  John Stuart Mill

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    this is no different than when one officer in one small town does something stupid - and all the rest of the LEO's nationwide are branded with that same public opinion based on one guy's stupid decision

                    if one gun fails, then every gun the manufacturer has made is bad? I just can't figure how I've put thousands of rounds through S&W (45 and 10mm), Sig .40's, and Glocks (45 and 9mm) and had ZERO issues with any of them ... and yet some idiot has one problem with a major mfg.'s gun and now all that company's guns are crap...

                    ford v. chevy, 9mm v. 45, glock v. sig, american v. japanese/german cars.... all subjective (as long as you are buying major mfg merchandise). Glocks are great, S&W are great, Sig's are great... my Ford's have been great, my jeep is great, I love hondas/toyotas/bmw, and whatever round I hit the target with before they hit me is just fine...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Glock go boom, first hand knowledge.

                      Ok. Not any magazine hype. First hand (ouch) knowledge.

                      Ok, background. I reload my own ammo, and even cast my own bullets. I have been reloading since the early 70's (yea, I know, I'm old). I follow reloading data, so nothing hot! I had made some 40 S&W ammo, using some 180 grain trunc cone, commercial made bullets, with once fired brass. At the range, with a Glock 27 and a H&H USP (40 S&W).
                      I fire about 75 - 80 rounds through the H&K, no problems. Pick up the glock, and start firing. Before I empty the mag, BOOM! Magazine blows out the mag well. Only appearant damage, mag catch on the glock 27 is distroyed. Hand stings a little.

                      Upon inspecting the case, it has blown out next to the rim.

                      If you remove a barrel from a H&K (or anyother weapon) and a barrel from a glock, and drop a loaded round into the chamber. Look next to the feed ramp. On a Glock barrel, you will see a little bit of brass exposed (almost a half moon). On the other barrel, the feed ramp is flush with the rim of the barrel. This is an unsupported chamber.

                      The after market barrels for the glock, do not have this unsupported chamber.

                      My mistake was using once fired brass (weak), in an unsupported chamber. It is possible, that the brass that I used, was previously fired in an unsupported chamber, and thus was weak, next to the rim. Then when fired again in a glock chamber, with nothing to support the brass, it ruptured. Luckily, because these rounds were loaded within the specified tech data, it had only blew out the magazine out of the weapon with no damage to the shooter (me), or my weapon (yes, I had to replace the mag catch).

                      Now, are Glock good weapons. Yes. I just don't use a factory barrel. No other issues. That's my two cents, which doesn't even make a down payment for a cup of coffee.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        We run +P 230gr ammo in our G21's and now G21SF's.

                        No problems and the weapons are supremely reliable. Does that mean we won't ever get a factory defect? Nope. Does that mean Glocks are better than any other combat pistol on the market? Nope.

                        What it means is that I carry a pistol on duty that I have confidence in and that I can shoot fast and accurately. THAT is what matters.

                        Regarding lead in the Glock. It's a no-no. Due to the hexagonal rifling the barrel will lead up fast. Then when you ram a jacketed bullet down the barrel you will have an overpressure and possibly rupture the unsupported case head. Don't shoot lead bullets through a factory barrel. Get an aftermarket barrel if you want to shoot lead.

                        I run lead through my 1911 all the time. I still clean the **** out of it before I load my JHP's up.
                        "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
                        8541tactical.com - Ammo Wallets

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I just got this from a close friend, a master gunsmith and C3 manufacturer, with 40 years in the biz:

                          This has been going on with Glock 21's six months after they were introduced! Those crap barrels are made of the cheapest steel (resulfurized for "easy" machining) then Nitrided so the exterior and interior have a "crust" on them. After repeated firing, and because they are the same exterior size as the 10mm, they begin to stress crack! After months of repeated firing with standard .45 Ball, they blow! And when they blow, they crack from the chamber, not the muzzle--I have seen plenty of them. Call Amarillo P.D.--they were the first to use them extensively and first to spot the problem.

                          And this from a retired LE officer/instructor and gunsmith:

                          I haven't seen photos of that specific type of failure, but catastrophic failure of (primarily .40 and .45) Glocks is not rare.
                          Suspect the failure shown in this video is a variant of another type I have seen (in photos) in which the top half of the chamber is blown up and forward, taking a bit of the barrel with it - i.e., the bottom half in this case. Europeans appear to like the free machining characteristics. Additionally, the tennifer process used by Glock (aka 'bruniton' in the USA) is believed to impart brittleness via hydrogen embrittlement.

                          With the exception of the .45 GAP, Glocks have always been improperly breeched. That allows them to feed very reliably, but provides insufficient case support in the feed ramp of the barrel. Case ruptures and energetic magazine ejection are the usual result, but that doesn't appear to be the case in this video.

                          If past history is any guide, Glock will insist the pistol be returned to them for examination, the evidence will be destroyed, and ammunition and/or shooter error will be named as the cause and the agency will get a new pistol. So far as I know, in cases where Glock has made settlement payments the terms of the settlement are sealed.


                          Do these reports mean Glocks are unsafe? NO, Should you stop carrying your Glock? NO Should you carry a backup gun? Yes, regardless of who made your primary gun. Am I anti-Glock? NO, I am pro-officers surviving.

                          Remember, Mr. Murphy is riding shotgun every time you go out.
                          "A man who has nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the existing of better men than himself."
                          John Stuart Mill

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            There are so many things wrong with this group of paragraphs that I don't even have the time to address them. Please don't use Glocks marketing to back up your argument.

                            I posted this on another forum where a similar thread had several posts of, "OMG the XD is sooo.... much better than a Glock". I couldn't take it any more, and had to put a few things out there.

                            One thing the XD is superior to the Glock in is handle diameter and that's only for people with short fingers. That's it. Other reasons given to the XD's superiority are subjective to opinion and nothing else. And now even that is suspect since Glock has introduced the 21-SF.

                            A few of the given "reasons" XDs are better I've read:

                            Price.

                            The Glock is about $80 more than the XD. I don't know many people who think $80 is something to worry about with something that protects your life. I just put $80.00 worth of gas in my truck this morning.

                            Machining quality/manufacture.

                            I have seen XDs go out for warranty work (sometimes complete replacement due to inability to repair). Cracked frames, ftf, stove piping, chambers needing to be honed. The list goes on and on.

                            Durability.

                            Like the aforementioned reason - it's false. Most people have this opinion based on only having a few thousand (if that) rounds through their XDs. At the indoor range I shoot at they are constantly having problems with their XD rentals (see previous reason problems) while Glocks usually run about 100,000 rounds through them before they cycle a new one into the mix. Those are 100,000 trouble free rounds. Consistently. Wait a few more years when all of these XDs get some real use.

                            Ergonomics.

                            XD likes to tout this one in their advertising as well saying that when you point it the sights line up rather than having you look at the top of the slide. Glock went with their 105 degree handle angle for a reason: they tested, tested and did some more testing and found that it provided the best firing results for accuracy and following shots. The XD's handle angle along with its high barrel axis to the hand provide much more muzzle flip than a Glock which in turn means less accurate double-taps and a less control.

                            Single action vs double action.

                            The Glock uses the double action for safety. It's one of the reasons it's called Safe-Action. If the striker spring isn't cocked - it can't fire! Just like a down hammer. The XD has a cocked spring. You can count on replacing the striker spring many more times in an XD than a Glock because of this. You also better hope your firing pin block is in proper working order or you're at the mercy of the poorly designed sear of the XD which, by the way, will fire out of battery. Try pushing back on the slide sometime while pulling the trigger. The double action might not be as smooth, clean or as short a pull of the single action, but these are service pistols not target pistols.

                            The slide lock.

                            The slide lock on the Glock is designed to be tight against the frame and slide as to not be snagged on anything. They also wanted people to use two hands to release the slide because it's a more controlled manner than hitting the lock with your thumb. This isn't the movies! Release the slide the proper way. The slide lock on the XD also adds a decent amount to the overall width of the weapon - not very carry friendly.

                            Finish.

                            People, Tenifer is not the outside coating. Tenifer is the metal treatment of the slide and barrel itself. It is .005 mm thick and is close the the hardness of diamond. The treatment of the metal itself achieves a 99.9% salt water resistance. Tenifer is also illegal in this country because the EPA. XD does not have it. Don't regularly oil the slide on your XD and carry it in a cold climate for a while. The in/out condensation will rust your slide in no time.

                            Warranty.

                            Good thing Springfield has you covered here, you're going to need it.

                            Field stripping.

                            The Glock actually uses a faster process which uses less steps than the XD. Also, many people rotate the take-down lever then pull the slide lock down putting all forward inertia of the slide to come to a halt against the sear (it's the only thing keeping the slide from going forward at that point) and cause damage to the sear, striker and frame.

                            Loaded chamber indicator.

                            Glock has this as well.

                            [b]Cocked indicator.[b]

                            Glock has this as well. If the trigger is forward on a Glock, it's cocked. Also, how are you going to get a round into the chamber on either of these guns without it being cocked? It's not a Walther with a decocker.

                            Grip safety.

                            How is a gun going to go off without your hand on the handle? Your finger should never be inside the trigger guard unless you have the weapon acquired and intend to fire. Are we forgetting some basic firearm rules? The grip safety is null and void.

                            Customization.

                            If you can't find genuine Glock custom parts for your Glock at your local gun dealer, you need to find a new one. Glock holsters, parts and accessories are everywhere. Try to find a holster for your XD. It's much more difficult. Yes, it's newer and takes a while, but companies will be reluctant to make them because Springfield supplies you with one, albeit a horrible one with not one level of retention.

                            I felt the need to debunk these XD/Glock myths. The XD is not even close to being up to par with the Glock. The Glock is going on 20 years now and has changed the world of pistols - the XD won't make that sort of impact. Bill T.
                            "My faith, my country and my family will guide me; nothing more, nothing less" -Gen. Tommy Franks

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Malarky

                              Originally posted by SCV-Sop View Post
                              http://www.wtov9.com/news/21907727/detail.html

                              Weapon, Not Ammo, May Have Caused Deputy's Gun To Explode
                              Posted: 12:01 pm EST December 9, 2009
                              Updated: 11:04 pm EST December 9, 2009

                              Officials in Marshall County said they've learned it could have been the weapon -- not the ammunition -- that caused a gun to explode in a deputy's hand last week.

                              Chief Deputy Kevin Cecil said organizations from across the country have called him recently, saying they've had similar situations with their guns.

                              "It's a combination of them wanting to know what happened … along with possible problems with their firearms," Cecil said.

                              A deputy was using the .45 caliber Glock 21 for the first time at a firing range last week when the lower half exploded, breaking off the trigger, sending parts flying and injuring his hand.

                              Cecil said he initially thought it was the ammunition that caused the problem, but not he's not so sure.

                              He said, as time goes on, he's learned quite a bit about similar situations throughout the country.

                              "We're actually adjusting our thinking a little bit. It might not just be the ammunition. There may be a certain issue with the firearm itself, so we're going to send it off to have it independently evaluated," Cecil said.

                              At Shooter's in Bridgeport, Bill Monahan has a collection of guns that have exploded.

                              "I've seen lots of handguns blow up over the years. Usually it's an overload that causes it. There's many different factors that could cause it, but that's the most common," Monahan said.

                              He said he doesn't want to speculate on what happened with the deputy's gun, but said there are several reasons he's known a Glock to explode.

                              "(With) Glocks, you can't fire lead bullets. Not saying that's what he did, but that's one of the culprits," Monahan said.

                              He said he's like to take a look at the Marshall County weapon, but Cecil said he is preparing to send it to an independent evaluator to find out exactly what happened.

                              "They'll know when they get to examine this gun just exactly what took place," Monahan said.

                              Stay with NEWS9 and WTOV9.com for continuing coverage.


                              Previous Stories:
                              December 4, 2009: Pistol Explodes In Deputy's Hand
                              We got a memo about a certain department having an incident with a 21SF one of the newer models but nothing about the regualr "21" older models, and it was (as it usually always is) the ammunition.
                              You folks have to remember even machines make mistakes when putting smokless gun powder into casings sometimes or reloaded weak brass,,a whole host of things could have happened.
                              Ofcourse lead build up is harmful as it is on any weapon..THATS WHY YOU GUYS NEED TO CLEAN YOUR FIREARMS ALL THE TIME...

                              NOthing wrong with the Glock 21. Ive had two in my life time and shot many cases of ammo through them all. I prefer the XD Tactical over the 21,,but nothing wrong with it.
                              "Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. The MARINES don't have that problem." ....Ronald Reagan

                              Comment

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