9mm 1 Shot Stops

[CSIBPD]

We are working on 2 cases where a 9mm resulted in a "1 shot stop."

Case 1:
Suspect 1 (gunner) and suspect 2 (unarmed) try to rob someone. Victim refuses to hand over his wallet, fights with the suspects for a few seconds, and tries to run away. Suspect 1 fires a round at the fleeing victim. The round hits the street, ricochets, and strikes the victim in the back of the neck. Victim drops dead.

Gun was a Hi-Point 9mm with some Winchester 115g JHP.



Case 2:
Two officers respond to a domestic altercation. As they are walking up the sidewalk to the residence, the suspect opens the front door, walks out with a knife in his hand, and tells the officers "I ain't going back to prison," and runs at the officers. One of the officers draws his sidearm, fires 1 round striking the suspect in the chest, resulting in the suspect dropping to the ground. Suspect bleeds out and dies within seconds.

Gun was a Springfield XD 9mm with Speer Gold Dot 124g +P JHP.



Just thought I'd throw this out there to illustrate shot placement > caliber.

[velobard]

The round hits the street, ricochets, and strikes the victim in the back of the neck. Victim drops dead.

Dang, that's some bad luck with the ricochet.

[CSIBPD]

Yes it was bad luck. Very, very bad luck.

There's another, older case where threee officers were in a gunfight with a suspect. Two officers had GLOCK 21s, the third (and much older) had the old city issued .38 Spl. The GLOCK users got some hits on the suspect but nothing lethal. The .38 shooter got a lucky shot off which hit the suspect in the heart, killing him.

I am not anti-45 ACP by any means. I think it is a great round, as are the .40 and 9mm. I am a big advocate of training with what you are comfortable with, and making sure you can hit the target. There are too many people that run out and buy such & such because John Doe said it was the best.

What works for one may suck for someone else.

[Wade95]

One reason why we are carrying Glock 21's is because the 9's just weren't doing it for us. One example: My pursuit, high speed, through yards, on the street, back through yards. At one point driver came at officer who was outside his car. One shot in windshield (which could have ended it if shot placement was better) and two in the door (which didn't even penetrate interior) and one through back window (which went in, through drivers seat and into driver.) Driver continued until crashed. When we yanked him out of the car the bullet was located under the skin underneath left nipple (rode rib cage around.)

[velobard]

One reason why we are carrying Glock 21's is because the 9's just weren't doing it for us.

I carry a 9mm occasionally (usually .45), but thankfully as a non-LEO with a ccw odds are pretty slim that I'd be shooting through barriers other than clothing. It sounds like just about any caliber (especially a HP) could have a rough time still if it had to pass throgh a window and a seat before it hit flesh.

[CSIBPD]

That would be my thought. It's not the fact that it was a 9mm, but that it was probably a JHP round which, regardless of caliber, will have a tougher time penetrating windshields or car doors b/c of their expansion on impact.

Keep in mind that a .45 is a SLOWER moving bullet whereas a 9mm is a FASTER moving bullet. We have scenarios where the slower .45 deflected off a windshield but the 9mm punched through, due to the difference in velocity.

You never know what a bullet will do in flight.

[leesrt]

I only carry a 9 as a back up.
I read your sig and while I've heard that phrase a thousand times its meaningless.
Most handgun rounds are easy enough to learn how to shoot. Shooting fundamentals are the same for any gun. I've never met someone who shot a 9 really well and then sucked with a 45.
Assuming you are skilled at shooting a firearm the larger caliber will have a greater stopping effect.

Between the top 3 I would chose the .40 because its a nice blend between the two, .45 and 9mm.

Shot placement is always key but in a tactical environment where every thing is moving its not that easy.
You could shoot someone with a high power pellet gun and stop them with a lucky shot to the spinal cord. That's not the norm.

[KenW.]

A .22 rimfire will produce one-shot stops with perfect shot placement.

Not being perfect, I choose the larger .45 round because; it is my belief that like water through a hole in a bucket, life energy leaks more quickly through larger holes.

[Surf]

We are working on 2 cases where a 9mm resulted in a "1 shot stop."

Case 1:
Suspect 1 (gunner) and suspect 2 (unarmed) try to rob someone. Victim refuses to hand over his wallet, fights with the suspects for a few seconds, and tries to run away. Suspect 1 fires a round at the fleeing victim. The round hits the street, ricochets, and strikes the victim in the back of the neck. Victim drops dead.

Gun was a Hi-Point 9mm with some Winchester 115g JHP.



Case 2:
Two officers respond to a domestic altercation. As they are walking up the sidewalk to the residence, the suspect opens the front door, walks out with a knife in his hand, and tells the officers "I ain't going back to prison," and runs at the officers. One of the officers draws his sidearm, fires 1 round striking the suspect in the chest, resulting in the suspect dropping to the ground. Suspect bleeds out and dies within seconds.

Gun was a Springfield XD 9mm with Speer Gold Dot 124g +P JHP.



Just thought I'd throw this out there to illustrate shot placement > caliber.

Sorry but IMO, these are not necessarily good examples of shot placement. One was a lucky ricochet, not great shot placement. As for the second scenario, while it may have worked in that instance, it may not have worked on a determined assailant. If within knife attack distance even with an exploded heart a perp can still deliver a lethal attack with a knife, even though he may be a dead man walking. But it is good to hear that the good guys won.

A .22 rimfire will produce one-shot stops with perfect shot placement.

Not being perfect, I choose the larger .45 round because; it is my belief that like water through a hole in a bucket, life energy leaks more quickly through larger holes.

^^ This.

All things being equal with shot placement, if I get a less than perfect shot, I prefer there to be a bigger hole.

Also did I miss some discussion about shot placement being critical? FWIW - One of my best friends was killed on duty with a .22 to the heart. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anyone here arguing shot placement v. caliber.

[Blackdog F4i]

Shot placement is key. However if I am going to deliver a dose of copper covered lead to a particular location on the suspects anatomy, I would prefer that it be as large as possible so as to leave the biggest cavity to allow bodily fluids to escape from. Barring that, a high power rifle will do just fine.

[leesrt]

Sorry but IMO, these are not necessarily good examples of shot placement. One was a lucky ricochet, not great shot placement. As for the second scenario, while it may have worked in that instance, it may not have worked on a determined assailant. If within knife attack distance even with an exploded heart a perp can still deliver a lethal attack with a knife, even though he may be a dead man walking. But it is good to hear that the good guys won.

^^ This.

All things being equal with shot placement, if I get a less than perfect shot, I prefer there to be a bigger hole.

Also did I miss some discussion about shot placement being critical? FWIW - One of my best friends was killed on duty with a .22 to the heart. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anyone here arguing shot placement v. caliber.

I think we left out placement because they are separate issues. You have to assume one to talk about the other. In this case I assumed with identical shot placement I'd go with a larger Cal.
If the question is which will give you better shot placement I'd start from small Cal to big. The problem is with the smaller Cal your shot better be spot on. With a larger Cal you can be off a little and still have a devastating effect from energy transfer.

[CSIBPD]

"With a larger Cal you can be off a little and still have a devastating effect from energy transfer."


He went there...sigh.

[K40]

A .22 rimfire will produce one-shot stops with perfect shot placement.

Not being perfect, I choose the larger .45 round because; it is my belief that like water through a hole in a bucket, life energy leaks more quickly through larger holes.

Same reason I carry a .40. Higher velocity rounds hit more violently and are more likely to expand, thus creating more damage and a bigger hole. This is why the .357 magnum was so effective in so many police shootings when revolvers were the norm. Even if the rounds don't expand, .40 pistols typically have greater capacity than similar sized .45 pistols. Sixteen rounds of potent .40 from my G22 creates a heck of a lot more "life energy leakage" (whatever the heck that is) than 8 or 9 rounds of .45.

[Surf]

I think we left out placement because they are separate issues. You have to assume one to talk about the other. In this case I assumed with identical shot placement I'd go with a larger Cal.
If the question is which will give you better shot placement I'd start from small Cal to big. The problem is with the smaller Cal your shot better be spot on. With a larger Cal you can be off a little and still have a devastating effect from energy transfer.

This is the same point I was making. Shot placement being equal, I would still opt for the bigger hole.

As for the "energy transfer" comment, would you care to expound, or enlighten us on the science and actual efficacy of which you speak, primarily related to the topic of pistol rounds? Thanks.

[Surf]

"life energy leakage" (whatever the heck that is) than 8 or 9 rounds of .45.

Blood, the stuff that keeps the brain oxygenated and a person in the fight.