Class three firearms

[nathanttu]

is it legal for an individual to sell a class three firearm to someone else who hasnt already paid the one time $200 federal tax and gotten the papers signed by the sheriff/constable/chief and background check, etc? i guess what im asking is, is it illegal just to possess one if you didnt get it through traditional methods? (i.e. buying at a dealer)

[Dep D]

Without going to, and reading the law, my initial reaction would be YES.

You don't go through government paperwork when some is required, it is NO, you can't have said weapon.

If you either try, or do sell a weapon requiring government paperwork without the person already going through said paperwork and background, then YOU are breaking the law.

So, the answer is both yes and no...

[eman2k5]

Dont risk it or do it. Let them come back with the required paperwork before making a move. Ask Jwise about the paper stuff.

[jwise]

All transfers (sales) of machineguns, short barreled rifles (SBR), short barreled shotguns (SBS), all other weapons (AOW), and suppressors MUST go through a class 3 FFL.

So, if I wanted to sell you my SBR, I'd have to transfer the firearm to the dealer ($200 tax for that transfer), then he would have to transfer it to you ($200 tax for that transfer), once you have filled out the Form 4 and received it back from the ATF with the tax stamp affixed to the front.

There is a reason why people don't sell SBRs or Suppressors. It just doesn't make much sense to spend $400 on a transaction. Now, when it comes to $10k machineguns, the $400 in taxes isn't prohibitive.

[nathanttu]

got it, thanks. this aint for me, though. if i could afford to put ammo through an automatic, then maybe i would buy one...haha.

[ddurkof]

Jwise,

I must disagree with you. If the seller and buyer are in the same state then there is no need to go through a class 3 dealer. I have bought and sold a number of Title II weapons on Form 4s without going through a dealer. If the class 3 item is going out of state then that item must be transferred to a someone who is licensed to deal in National Firearms Act Weapons on a Form 4, tax paid ($200.00 for everything except AOWs, which are a $5.00 transfer tax).

Selling and transferring are two different things. I can sell a Class 3 item, but before it is physically transferred the Form 4 must be approved by BTFE.

If someone is handing you a Class 3 item for cash then look for the raid jackets with big yellow letters on the back to be visiting you and your door not closing real well after the visit.

[jwise]

Jwise,

I must disagree with you. If the seller and buyer are in the same state then there is no need to go through a class 3 dealer. I have bought and sold a number of Title II weapons on Form 4s without going through a dealer. If the class 3 item is going out of state then that item must be transferred to a someone who is licensed to deal in National Firearms Act Weapons on a Form 4, tax paid ($200.00 for everything except AOWs, which are a $5.00 transfer tax).

Selling and transferring are two different things. I can sell a Class 3 item, but before it is physically transferred the Form 4 must be approved by BTFE.

If someone is handing you a Class 3 item for cash then look for the raid jackets with big yellow letters on the back to be visiting you and your door not closing real well after the visit.

Hmmm... Ok. I don't know how this would be effectively done, but I'm all ears.

Let's say I'm going to buy your suppressor. What are the steps involved to transfer it to me without a dealer's involvement?

[ddurkof]

Much simpler than it seems.

Let's say that you have a suppressor that belongs to your trust. We both live in Houston. We meet and I pay you for your suppressor. We then sit down and fill out the Form 4. You fill out and sign the front and I fill out the back back and sign it. As you know, if it goes to my corporation or trust then the transfer does not need the Chief Law Enforcement Official sign off. If it goes to me personally then I have to get it signed off. (Fat chance in Harris County, unless you know a District Court Judge or are on first name basis with the Sheriff). I fill out the citizen statement, pick up the $200.00 money order for the transfer tax and off to BATFE the forms go in the mail.

Anywhere from 4 weeks to 6 to 12 months the transfer is approved and the form is sent to you. You call me up and say, "Its herrrre." I do a happy dance and met you. You hand over the approved Form 4 and the suppressor.

No muss no fuss.

The key is that the purchase has to be from the "lawful owner" in the same state that buyer resides. If you are selling to someone out of state, then it has to go to the Class 3 dealer who will be the "new owner," until the weapon is then transferred to the actual buyer.

The actual transfer has to be face to face. If the buyer is in El Paso, one or both of you are going to have to travel. You can't ship it to them, unless they are a FFL or a C&R if it is a C&R Class 3. It can be shipped directly, if they hold a federal firearms license, but it is still a $200.00 tax paid transfer.

It is explained pretty simply at the BATFE web site.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#m2

I hope that this explains the process.

Dave

[David Hineline]

Yes in state transfers can go tax paid form 4 between individuals, with no dealer involved. Transfers between individuals across state lines, do generate the $400 in taxes because a dealer in the buyer's state must be involved. This definatly deterrs sales of owned firearms across state lines.

Any transfer to/from a govment agency does not require a tax. So if you buy from a dept. no tax is needed.

[David Hineline]

To answer the original question, posessing a NFA device that is not registered to you is subject to up to 10yrs in prison and up to $250,000 fine.

So definatly not a good idea. Sell your item, start the transfer paperwork to the owner, give them all the parts off the NFA gun that is not registered and when their paperwork clears then give them the serialized componant.

[nathanttu]

To answer the original question, posessing a NFA device that is not registered to you is subject to up to 10yrs in prison and up to $250,000 fine.

So definatly not a good idea. Sell your item, start the transfer paperwork to the owner, give them all the parts off the NFA gun that is not registered and when their paperwork clears then give them the serialized componant.

Interesting, ok thanks for the info

[jwise]

Much simpler than it seems.

<SNIP>

Dave

I've heard of this being possible, but I really looked into it. It's good to hear from someone who has DONE it! Thanks for the info!

[beavo451]

To further continue the thread hijack, how can a C&R FFL holder pay an SOT? C&Rs cannot engage in business and the payment of SOT is purely for engaging in business involving NFA weapons.

[ddurkof]

C&R can not be a SOT, but they can directly receive C&R Title II from others after the Tax Paid Form 4 is approved.

Lets say you have a C&R license and live in a state other than mine. I have a 1928 Overstamp Thompson that you are just dieing to have. As I understand the law, after the Form 4 has been approved I can directly ship the gun to you. Thus saving the need, not to mention the $200.00, to go through a Class 3 dealer in your state.

Unless your C&R is a Trust or a Corporation you still have to go through the CLEO sign off and finger print requirements.

[Blackdog F4i]

Barring any state laws to the contrary a private individual MAY sell an NFA item to another proper person who is a resident of the same state by completing the correct Transfer paperwork and paying the applicable transfer tax.

When in doubt go through an FFL-SOT. The BATFE has no sense of humor when it comes to NFA items and "oops" doesn't cut it.