"Knockdown Power"????

[KS1911 Five O]

Had to edit this a bit ya'll. It's been a slow night, and I'm a little tired. Basically I was looking at getting a M1 carbine for my patrol unit (RMP, squad...) I found a ton of reviews on the web about how the round is not good enough for deer hunting. Any opinions good or bad?

[dogcop]

Not sure what your question really is or what you are looking for that hasn't been discussed alot. All I know is it seems like a piece of garbage can get shot in the chest with a deer slug and manage to live, but a cop gets shot in the leg with a .22, he bleeds out from the femoral artery. What I'm getting at is it is crap shoot as to what can happen when shot and there is no "magic bullet". #1 is shot placement followed by power of cartridge/design of bullet.

[KS1911 Five O]

Thanks for the quick reply dogcop. The reply you gave answers it all. I knew what I wanted to post, but kinda new at this forum thing so I'm trying to get used to it.

[eyildiz]

What dogcop said

amateurs talk about calibers, pros talk about shot placement they say

with my .45 I'm a decent shot, same with .40, but with a 9mm, I can put a hole, and put more bullets through that hole... at 25 yards, I can keep all the bullets on the paper. for me 9mm wins hands down, which is why I'm trying to get rid of my .45, I'm just not as good with it unfortunately. Great round though.

shot placement for me.

during a heated moment, I honestly don't know how well I can hit the guy in the heart/head though, so there knockdown power would be nice, but still. I'm with shot placement

[Surf]

Knockdown power is a bit of a fallacy, especially in regards to weapons commonly found in use in LE. It is simple physics. If the weapon does not impart enough energy to knock the shooter off their feet, the projectile will not knock a person down either, short of a CNS type of shot. Most people who fall to the ground after being shot, do so as a learned response.

Having said that nothing will really replace shot placement, unless if you are using a BB gun perhaps. In any case are you planning on using the M1 carbine for deer hunting or for a patrol weapon?

amateurs talk about calibers, pros talk about shot placement they say

Who is they? They should be talking about both. Discounting either is not a good thing.

[eyildiz]

Knockdown power is a bit of a fallacy, especially in regards to weapons commonly found in use in LE. It is simple physics. If the weapon does not impart enough energy to knock the shooter off their feet, the projectile will not knock a person down either, short of a CNS type of shot. Most people who fall to the ground after being shot, do so as a learned response.

the OP is not talking about knockdown power like movie style. he means takedown power. come on now.....

Who is they? They should be talking about both. Discounting either is not a good thing.

Says FBI...

Shot placement is everything in a gunfight and always the key to stopping a threat effectively

And what I said is just a saying man, I have NO clue who said it, and its probably just made up. someone that can hit a head or heart from any position, any situation will take someone out.

now if you hit me in the abdomen with a .45, or if you hit me with a 9mm, I no clue if one will kill me or not...

[Sgt. Slaughter]

Let me help you with this:

http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101037&highlight=knockdown+power

[Monkeybomb]

I used a M1 carbine to take my first two deer as a kid. One shot for each deer and both dropped fast. Both were well placed shots at 60 yards. I vote placement

[Mary14]

Shooting deer, elk, people ... what ever, all the same. I have trained a several rookies and had the conversation many times. My thought is shoot the biggest gun you can accurately shoot. If the .45 or .40 is inaccurate, then I'd take a 9mm.

[GtownPD825]

Simple answer- A well placed .45

[00-spy]

practice to be a proficient marksman first. with excellent shot placement, it won't matter what caliber weapon you have, you will still be able to neutralize the target in most cases.

[Surf]

the OP is not talking about knockdown power like movie style. he means takedown power. come on now.....

Hmmm, how do you know exactly what he is talking about? Do you roll over in the morning and wake him up? There has been so much talk for many many years about this topic, I answered exactly the way it was asked. Perhaps you could enlighten us here on "takedown power" and gives us your definition, or perhaps just regurgitate the FBI studies.

Says FBI...

Well perhaps you can show us where "they" said that. I can show you where, but they also talk just importantly about caliber and bullet selection. I can show you where they talk about this also. So it seems the the "they" talk about caliber and this is not just discussed amongst amateurs.

And what I said is just a saying man, I have NO clue who said it, and its probably just made up. someone that can hit a head or heart from any position, any situation will take someone out.

now if you hit me in the abdomen with a .45, or if you hit me with a 9mm, I no clue if one will kill me or not...

This is the problem my friend. You are offering advice that many will take to heart due to the nature of this LEO website and the professionals who post here. Throwing out information that you are unsure of the source or without first hand experience is a dangerous thing.

I am very very careful about the advice or opinions that I give. Even though this is a website there is quite a bit of liability that can come from information that I post. This goes for many others here. There are some topics that I avoid, and often times I may generalize quite a bit. But then again if some information is way out in left field, I will definitely speak up. Some people may rely on information given here to the point that their life may depend upon it.

[eyildiz]

Hmmm, how do you know exactly what he is talking about? Do you roll over in the morning and wake him up? There has been so much talk for many many years about this topic, I answered exactly the way it was asked. Perhaps you could enlighten us here on "takedown power" and gives us your definition, or perhaps just regurgitate the FBI studies.

Well perhaps you can show us where "they" said that. I can show you where, but they also talk just importantly about caliber and bullet selection. I can show you where they talk about this also. So it seems the the "they" talk about caliber and this is not just discussed amongst amateurs.

This is the problem my friend. You are offering advice that many will take to heart due to the nature of this LEO website and the professionals who post here. Throwing out information that you are unsure of the source or without first hand experience is a dangerous thing.

I am very very careful about the advice or opinions that I give. Even though this is a website there is quite a bit of liability that can come from information that I post. This goes for many others here. There are some topics that I avoid, and often times I may generalize quite a bit. But then again if some information is way out in left field, I will definitely speak up. Some people may rely on information given here to the point that their life may depend upon it.

What information did I throw out there? saying the guy isn't talking about 'knock the person off their feet' correction I made?

or the 'they say' thing? jesus christ dude!

we even agree on the subject. you say shot placement, i say shot placement.

I respect your response and taking the time to reply to me, but I won't reply to your next response, if you would like to take it further, please feel free to PM me about the subject.

Thanks.

[eyildiz]

My thought is shoot the biggest gun you can accurately shoot. If the .45 or .40 is inaccurate, then I'd take a 9mm.

Thats pretty good way of putting it imo.

but then it goes into 'capacity' which is not a part of this thread

if I had 1 bullet to shoot someone with, it would be my 9, i know I wouldn't miss.

however if I could shoot my .45 like I could shoot my 9, then it would be my .45 without a doubt.

that is at least how I see it.

[Surf]

What information did I throw out there? saying the guy isn't talking about 'knock the person off their feet' correction I made?

Well you corrected the statement from knockdown power to takedown power. Sounds like you are throwing some other affect of ballistics or combat shooting out there on the table. I don't even want you to attempt to explain what you mean here by takedown power. Someone might actually read what you have to say and get the wrong message.

or the 'they say' thing? jesus christ dude!

Hey, I didn't start this, I am only trying to clarify what you are saying. If you are gonna post "they", "them" or "whomever", it is pretty important that you back up what you are saying. This is some very critical information that others may make life and or death decisions over. At the least, if you are going to comment please let us know how you come to such conclusions so that we may do our own research on the topic and make our own judgments as to the validity of what you are commenting on.

we even agree on the subject. you say shot placement, i say shot placement.

We only half agree. Shot placement is key. However you discount caliber as a topic better left to amatuers. Caliber and or bullet selection is a direct correlation to terminal ballistic performance. By no means is this a discussion left to amatuers, and it is a valid topic to be considered.

I respect your response and taking the time to reply to me, but I won't reply to your next response, if you would like to take it further, please feel free to PM me about the subject.

I have no need to take this to a PM. I am not here to call you names. This is relevant information that others can learn from, not just something for your eyes and mine alone.