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  • #16
    Originally posted by Rifleguy View Post
    I'd put the ROMAKS ahead of the SAR. ROMAKS were the first sporteriezed Romanian AKs and worked great even with the PSL stock on them. They came as ROMAK I (7.62x39) and ROMAK II(5.45x39).
    While I do not doubt you, I have never handled a ROMAK, and have never seen them. In addition, no one has ever asked me about one, so I chose to leave it off the list. This is NOT an exhaustive list to say the VERY least, as there are more types of AKs out there than I could BEGIN to evaluate.

    Hungarian SA-85 is on par with the Arsenal SLR-95 and was one of the rifles to be banned in 98. Those rifles are great...
    I believe you. I added the note about the Hungarian SA-85 because I KNEW someone was going to say something if I left it off!

    I don't know if I would put Russian ahead of Chinese or Bulgarian or early Mitchell Yugos. The early pre ban (pre-89) AKs still to me are the better ones outside of custom AKs mainly due to most importers using less than skilled personnel (century arms comes to mind).
    I have heard very good things about the pre-89 Yugo M76, but have never heard anything about the AK-47s. I also have not heard anything about pre-89 Bulgarians. I own a Bulgarian SSR, a Chinese AKM-47S, and a Russian VEPR. I ordered them the way I think they ought to be ranked. While the Norinco is more nostalgic, and I like it for those reasons, the wood stocks of the Norinco leave a lot to be desired, and blued steel is not better than phosphate coating (I've personally never seen a rusted parkerized gun, but I HAVE seen a rusted blued gun). I know some people value the quality of bluing above a phosphate coating, and have seen blued guns hold up very well over time. I respect that, but I do not agree. The markings on the Norinco are made up of the simple stamping of the make/model on the left side of the receiver, but the S and F markings on the right side are much better. Overall, the Norinco's markings do not compare to the perfect engraving on the Bulgarian. Add to this that Saigas are also excellent rifles (albeit "sporterized"), and Arsenal rifles are US/Bulgarian hybrids (not sure exactly which are which but Arsenal is a licensed manufacturer of the Bulgarian rifle designs), that makes me give Russian and Bulgy rifles a strong nod.

    Here are up-close pictures of my Russian VEPR, Bulgarian SSR-85C2, and Chinese Norinco AKM-47S. You decide which has the better finish/markings:

    VEPR:





    Great black painted finish, perfect white painted lettering. Craftsmanship is also excellent.

    SSR-85C2:



    Nice phosphate coating, well defined engraving, and excellent craftsmanship.

    AKM-47S:





    Blued steel, showing lots of striation of the metal, and inconsistent stamped lettering.

    I know this is just the superficial aesthetics of the rifle, but keep in mind, that's really the only way to judge an AK. They ALL work, and NONE of them are match rifles, so there has to be SOME way to differentiate between them.

    Well, that last statement isn't all that true. We CAN differentiate between them based on accuracy. The VEPR is nearly as close as you can get to a "match" AK. It's trigger is butter smooth, it has a heavier barrel, and the receiver is thicker/stronger (RPK receiver). This all adds together to make one of the most accurate AKs out there. However, it's still not as accurate as an AR. Almost, but not quite...

    Those pre-89 Yugos are incredible including the .308s and definitely make a top 3. Sad to say the only ones I see for sale are the parted gun from beat up demilled civil war rifles.
    Again, not having handled/seen any, I chose to leave them off the list rather than guesstimate off other's comments.

    Hard to believe but its been nearly 20 years since we have had nonban AKs imported. Depressing for us AK enthusiasts as I don't see anything getting better.
    Truly... I remember gunshows where I would see crates full of Norincos, and H&K 91s for $700 or so. I was too young to buy in those days, but boy did I enjoy the shows...
    Last edited by jwise; 12-21-2008, 07:37 PM.
    J. Wise

    AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

    "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

    Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Mstangfk View Post
      i guess i cant really ever bring myself to own one of these, jsut like i wont own a Mauser 8mm...something about so many men from our country killed by em leaves me with a bad taste..im weird like that.


      however, they are the timex of battle rifles, almost indestructible and foolproof, like a Glock.
      Here is a list of countries, allies of the US, who sent ground troops to Iraq/Afghanistan. I started researching each country, to see what rifle they carried into harm's way alongside our fighting men. I didn't finish, as it took up too much time. I'd like to offer up the observation that your distaste may be too broadly applied. Your opinion is akin to anti-gunners, saying "guns are evil." I do understand your specific viewpoint, but you might want to open your mind to the fact that AKs are carried by our friends, not just by our enemies.

      United States: M16A2/M4
      United Kingdom: SA80
      Australia: Steyr AUG
      Romania: PA md 86 (AK-74)
      El Salvador:
      Czech Republic: VZ 58 (AK variant)
      Albania: AK-47
      Ukraine: AK-47/74
      Estonia: Galil (AK variant)
      Moldova: AK-74
      Bulgaria: AR-M1 (AK-47)
      Singapore: SAR21 (bullpup)
      South Korea: Daewoo K1/K2 (AK variant)
      Tonga: IMI Galil (AK variant)
      Azerbaijan: AK-74
      Bosnia and Herzegovina:
      Macedonia: Zastava M21 (AK variant)
      Latvia: AK-74, G36, M16 and G3
      Poland: Beryl (AK in 5.56)
      Kazakhstan: AK-74
      Armenia: AK-74
      Mongolia: AK-47
      Georgia: Switched this year from AK to M4
      Slovakia:
      Denmark: C7 (M16)
      Lithuania: G36/G3/M16
      Italy: AR70
      Norway: H&K 416
      Japan:
      Hungary: AMD 63 (AK-47)
      Netherlands: C7 and H&K 416
      Portugal: G3/Galil/Sig 540
      New Zealand: Steyr AUG
      Thailand: M16 to be replaced by Tavor TAR21
      Philippines: M16
      Honduras:
      Dominican Republic:
      Spain:
      Nicaragua:
      Iceland: H&K G3/G36

      I don't have the time to look up all of our allies, but do you see the TREND?
      Last edited by jwise; 12-08-2008, 06:04 PM.
      J. Wise

      AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

      "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

      Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

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      • #18
        The AK is one of the most prolific "assault rifles" (because a select fire AK IS an assault rifle) in the world.

        I remember a certain deployment with Nigerian troops. They were all rocking AK's and we were somewhat happy to see them. (they make good cannon fodder). Lots of good guys have been killed with AK's. That doesn't make them any worse than my butcher knives (a type of weapon which has also killed scores of innocents). I didn't see what the big deal about the AK was until I bought one. It won't ever replace my AR's, but you have to respect it for what it is. It's crude, but it runs like a raped ape. I would have no problem carrying one into any hot spot around the globe (as long as there were other AK's present).
        "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
        8541tactical.com - Ammo Wallets

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        • #19
          Originally posted by jwise View Post
          Here is a list of countries, allies of the US, who sent ground troops to Iraq/Afghanistan. I started researching each country, to see what rifle they carried into harm's way alongside our fighting men. I didn't finish, as it took up too much time. I'd like to offer up the observation that your distaste may be too broadly applied. Your opinion is akin to anti-gunners, saying "guns are evil." I do understand your specific viewpoint, but you might want to open your mind to the fact that AKs are carried by our friends, not just by our enemies.

          United States: M16A2/M4
          United Kingdom: SA80
          Australia: Steyr AUG
          Romania: PA md 86 (AK-74)
          El Salvador:
          Czech Republic: VZ 58 (AK variant)
          Albania: AK-47
          Ukraine: AK-47/74
          Estonia: Galil (AK variant)
          Moldova: AK-74
          Bulgaria: AR-M1 (AK-47)
          Singapore: SAR21 (bullpup)
          South Korea: Daewoo K1/K2 (AK variant)
          Tonga: IMI Galil (AK variant)
          Azerbaijan: AK-74
          Bosnia and Herzegovina:
          Macedonia: Zastava M21 (AK variant)
          Latvia: AK-74, G36, M16 and G3
          Poland: Beryl (AK in 5.56)
          Kazakhstan: AK-74
          Armenia: AK-74
          Mongolia: AK-47
          Georgia: Switched this year from AK to M4
          Slovakia:
          Denmark: C7 (M16)
          Lithuania: G36/G3/M16
          Italy: AR70
          Norway: H&K 416
          Japan:
          Hungary: AMD 63 (AK-47)
          Netherlands: C7 and H&K 416
          Portugal: G3/Galil/Sig 540
          New Zealand: Steyr AUG
          Thailand: M16 to be replaced by Tavor TAR21
          Philippines: M16
          Honduras:
          Dominican Republic:
          Spain:
          Nicaragua:
          Iceland: H&K G3/G36

          I don't have the time to look up all of our allies, but do you see the TREND?

          you dont have to tell me, all the ISAF troops i was around over there had AKs except the French Brits and Germans..

          the Bulgarians had some crazy AK's all modded out lol
          In the end we're all just chalk lines on the concrete drawn only to be washed away, for the time that I've been given, I am what I am. I'd rather you hate me for everything I am, Than have you love me for being something that Im not

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          • #20
            I think I'm going to make a point to take out all my AKs over the Christmas break, and shoot them for groups at 100yds. I'll bring an AR with me, too, and shoot Wolf ammo in all of them.

            I think an accuracy report on the various makes would be a good addition to this thread.

            Anybody interested, or is it just me?
            J. Wise

            AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

            "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

            Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

            sigpic

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by jwise View Post
              I think I'm going to make a point to take out all my AKs over the Christmas break, and shoot them for groups at 100yds. I'll bring an AR with me, too, and shoot Wolf ammo in all of them.

              I think an accuracy report on the various makes would be a good addition to this thread.

              Anybody interested, or is it just me?
              I think that would be great... Be sure you let us know the features of the rifle and the exact ammo you used....
              Last edited by jyatesmp; 12-09-2008, 02:39 AM.
              The two loudest noises are a BANG when you thought there should be a CLICK and a CLICK when you thought there should be a BANG.

              http://tacticalspecialistgroup.com/

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              • #22
                Originally posted by jwise View Post
                I think I'm going to make a point to take out all my AKs over the Christmas break, and shoot them for groups at 100yds. I'll bring an AR with me, too, and shoot Wolf ammo in all of them.

                I think an accuracy report on the various makes would be a good addition to this thread.

                Anybody interested, or is it just me?
                I'm interested, more to dream about then.

                I always thought an AK on patrol would clearly indicate the mopes should bother someone else.

                But really, any long gun should do that.
                For every one hundred men you send us,
                Ten should not even be here.
                Eighty are nothing but targets.
                Nine of them are real fighters;
                We are lucky to have them, they the battle make.
                Ah, but the one. One of them is a warrior.
                And he will bring the others back.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Blackdog F4i View Post
                  The AK is one of the most prolific "assault rifles" (because a select fire AK IS an assault rifle) in the world.

                  I remember a certain deployment with Nigerian troops. They were all rocking AK's and we were somewhat happy to see them. (they make good cannon fodder). Lots of good guys have been killed with AK's. That doesn't make them any worse than my butcher knives (a type of weapon which has also killed scores of innocents). I didn't see what the big deal about the AK was until I bought one. It won't ever replace my AR's, but you have to respect it for what it is. It's crude, but it runs like a raped ape. I would have no problem carrying one into any hot spot around the globe (as long as there were other AK's present).
                  100% agree


                  if one reads the book "Steel my Soldiers Hearts" by Col David Hackworth (RIP) he tells of a bulldozer uncovering a very dead and decayed VC soldier with a loaded AK, the good Col knocked the mudd off it and and sprayed all 30 rounds from he rusty POS into the jungle, turned to his staff and said "this is the rifle we should have"

                  its a hell of a battle rifle, no doubt, i just cant bring myself to get interested enough to own one..i carry grudges.
                  In the end we're all just chalk lines on the concrete drawn only to be washed away, for the time that I've been given, I am what I am. I'd rather you hate me for everything I am, Than have you love me for being something that Im not

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I hate it when people attempt to compare accuracy of the AK vs the AR by shooting 1954 chinese surplus ammo stored in sub-optimal conditions in the WSAR AK...and shooting new manufactured 77 grain Open Tip Match Black Hills in a custom buil Colt with a barrel who's twist is optimized for that bullet weight.

                    I'd like to see the accuracy results of a top of the line AK like a Jim Fuller custom built AK, loaded with 7.62x39mm DPX ammo vs. an AR of equal quality.

                    I'm going to bet the results will be somewhat of a shocker to both sides.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Mitchell_in_CT View Post
                      I hate it when people attempt to compare accuracy of the AK vs the AR by shooting 1954 chinese surplus ammo stored in sub-optimal conditions in the WSAR AK...and shooting new manufactured 77 grain Open Tip Match Black Hills in a custom buil Colt with a barrel who's twist is optimized for that bullet weight.

                      I'd like to see the accuracy results of a top of the line AK like a Jim Fuller custom built AK, loaded with 7.62x39mm DPX ammo vs. an AR of equal quality.

                      I'm going to bet the results will be somewhat of a shocker to both sides.
                      Would you consider both shooting Wolf to be a productive test? It would only be for comparison's sake, and wouldn't show the POTENTIAL of the two systems, but it's not too easy to find good quality
                      (match quality?) 7.62X39.

                      If I had a 5.56 AK, like the Arsenal 106FR, it would be a better test.
                      J. Wise

                      AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                      "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                      Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by jwise View Post
                        Would you consider both shooting Wolf to be a productive test? It would only be for comparison's sake, and wouldn't show the POTENTIAL of the two systems, but it's not too easy to find good quality
                        (match quality?) 7.62X39.

                        If I had a 5.56 AK, like the Arsenal 106FR, it would be a better test.
                        I'd just like to see two rifles of like quality firing ammunition of like quality.

                        A fair playing field.

                        Wolf through an AR...eh. Is that fair to the AR system?

                        New/good condition milspec rifles, firing current production, milspec ammo...and let the chips fall as they may.

                        That will be the best test.

                        I still believe the AK will do just fine in that test, likely better than what people will expect.

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                        • #27
                          Well, keep in mind that I will really be testing the various AKs against EACH OTHER, and just throwing the AR in there for the heck of it. Kind of like a baseline.
                          J. Wise

                          AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                          "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                          Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

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                          • #28
                            What I would like to see is how accurate a custom AK built with a quality stainless blank (Hart, LW, Krieger, etc) and some 7.62x39 handloads would be.

                            Of course once you throw a match chamber into the mix you destroy the inherent reliability of the system. It would still be a kick to see though.
                            "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
                            8541tactical.com - Ammo Wallets

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Mitchell_in_CT View Post
                              I'd just like to see two rifles of like quality firing ammunition of like quality.

                              A fair playing field.

                              Wolf through an AR...eh. Is that fair to the AR system?

                              New/good condition milspec rifles, firing current production, milspec ammo...and let the chips fall as they may.

                              That will be the best test.

                              I still believe the AK will do just fine in that test, likely better than what people will expect.
                              Also would be best if the AR was using 7.62x39 also. Put them on more equal terms. And I agree the AK is not a sharpshooter but its not this inaccurate rifle given to it on the internet. I believe it will surprise people. I know my custom SBR AK impressed me quite a bit more so than it should have.

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                              • #30
                                You can add this to the rail options (for Krinks):
                                http://www.stormwerkz.com/Descriptio...unt_Views.html
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