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  • 45 ACP duty ammo

    I have switched to a glock 21 in 45 ACP. Since my dept lets me choose my own gun and ammo I would like any information on 45 ACP duty ammo. I am currently carring cor bon 185 gr. JHP but have been thinking about magsafe in a 96 gr., another leo i know said the magsafe does not overpenetrate but is a hot round and did not think it would be good for steady use. Any comments?
    Every day is just the same, I'm chasing rainbows in the rain.

  • #2
    Magsafe...Oh HELL NO.

    August 2002
    MagSafe Ammunition Demonstrates Inadequate Terminal Performance for General-Purpose Personal Defense Use

    By Shawn Dodson

    Background
    An arm blocking the path to the upper torso of a homicidal attacker should not easily defeat a personal defense bullet. The hand, forearm and upper arm are commonly encountered intervening obstacles. In the 1986 FBI-Miami shootout, bullets hit the weapon, gun hand or gun arm of six out of ten participants. Felon Michael Platt was hit three times in the gun arm alone.

    FBI Special Agent Mireles, while carrying a 12 gauge shotgun, was hit in the support hand forearm by a .223 bullet fired by Platt during the initial moments of the gunfight. Despite the injury Mireles later fired five rounds of #00 buckshot from behind cover, and then, armed with his .38 Special revolver, he advanced and shot Platt and William Matix multiple times, finally stopping them. Mireles’ actions reveal that an injury, which inactivates a hand or arm, simply reduces a determined adversary’s fighting abilities; it does not incapacitate him nor make him any less dangerous.

    An assailant’s arms have the potential to obstruct a substantial area of his front upper torso, especially if he is pointing a firearm at you. Likewise a single arm can obstruct a large area of his side upper torso if an assailant must be engaged broadside. Therefore if the chances are good that your bullet might strike a hand or an arm then it makes sense to choose a bullet that is capable of passing completely through these structures and retain enough penetration potential to reach vitals in the upper torso to produce a rapidly incapacitating wound.

    A gunfight usually produces one or two solid hits to the torso of a determined adversary before it’s over. More often than not, whoever delivers the first solid hit determines the victor. While frequent training increases your odds of getting effective hits as quickly as possible, a deadly mix of fate combined with inadequate ammunition can lose this advantage. Fate, like the location of your attacker’s arms when you skillfully make that one-in-a-million shot early in the gunfight, is a factor that is completely beyond your control. There’s nothing you can do about it other than to accept its consequences. But the ammunition you choose for personal defense is something you control, and when you have the opportunity to actually tilt the odds in your favor, even if it’s just a little bit, you gain greater control over your destiny.

    A well-engineered, general-purpose personal defense bullet will have the capability to completely perforate your adversary’s arm, center punch a rib and penetrate his upper torso deeply enough to reach the spine, heart, aorta or vena cava. These structures are your bullet’s true targets. Hit here and your attacker will have no choice in what his reaction to being shot will be, and the fight will be over quickly.

    So-called "performance ammunition," a marketing moniker for cartridges that propel lightweight bullets at high-velocity, are mostly a poor choice for general-purpose personal defense use. These bullets typically require best-case conditions, such as an unobstructed shot to the upper torso, to produce an effective, fight stopping wound. Put a commonly encountered obstacle into the path of these bullets, like a hand or an arm, and these wonder bullets can be easily defeated.

    Methods and Materials
    A 6x6x16-inch block of standard ordnance gelatin was calibrated by firing a steel BB into one end of the block at a velocity of approximately 590 feet per second. Immediately after penetration depth was measured, a large kitchen knife was used to cut a 4-inch thick section off the gelatin block. The 6x6x4-inch block of gelatin was positioned 10-inches in front of the larger block to simulate the position and musculature of an extended forearm. A rack of pork ribs was placed in front of the larger block to simulate a human rib cage. A single MagSafe .45 ACP +P Defender bullet was fired from a Smith & Wesson model 4506 handgun (5-inch barrel) through the 4-inch length of the smaller gelatin block. The fragments that exited the first gelatin block continued on to penetrate the ribs and second gelatin block. Penetration depths of individual fragments captured in the second block were measured and recorded. Three MagSafe bullets were tested in this manner, using a separate gelatin block for each test shot. For comparison purposes, a single Federal .45 ACP HydraShok JHP bullet was also tested.

    Bullet velocity was measured using an Oehler model 35P proof chronograph. The chronograph’s sky screens were positioned directly in front of the gelatin block test stand. The distance from the muzzle of the handgun to the first gelatin block was approximately 10 feet.

    The test shots were performed within a minute after each gelatin block was calibrated.
    Results
    Each MagSafe bullet contains 12 pieces of # 2 (.15 caliber) copper-plated, hardened lead birdshot that are retained in a copper bullet jacket by an epoxy potting compound. The tables below present observed performance data of the MagSafe bullets.

    Performance of the single HydraShok bullet is described in the following Discussion section.

    Discussion
    The same rack of ribs was used with all four test shots. The first MagSafe bullet produced negligible damage to the ribs. The jacket base of the second MagSafe bullet exited the first block and passed through the space between two ribs and remained embedded in the meat on the exit side.

    Jacket fragments from the third MagSafe bullet were found embedded in the front of the ribs.

    A surprising observation was made when it was noticed that all pellets, in all three test shots, which encountered a rib, passed completely through the bone and suffered only moderate shape deformation.

    After each shot was made, the temporary cavity produced in the first block was examined and measured. Its diameter was found to be consistently between 8-9cm (approximately 3 - 3 ½ inches) for all three MagSafe shots. To put this in perspective, the temporary cavity diameter produced is approximately the same size as the diameter of a baseball.

    Jacket and epoxy fragments from the MagSafe bullets were observed in the first block, of which none wandered beyond the boundary of the temporary cavity.

    After the third test shot, the ribs were visually examined for damage. The ribs showed insignificant damage from the 34 penetrating pellets and various jacket fragments.
    When tests of the MagSafe cartridge were completed the same test was repeated using a single Federal HydraShok bullet. The HydraShok’s velocity was measured at 857 feet per second. It passed completely through the first gelatin block, producing a temporary cavity approximately the diameter of a golf ball, center-punched a rib and came to a stop after penetrating just slightly less than 5-inches into the second block. Altogether the HydraShok bullet penetrated approximately 10-inches.

    The hole produced in the rack of ribs by the HydraShok bullet was far more significant than any of the damage produced by the three MagSafe bullets.

    The HydraShok bullet was probably unable to realize its typical penetration depth potential of 13 - 14-inches (33.0 - 35.6cm) because of its decreased sectional density (.051) after expanding in the first gelatin block. The expanded bullet, measuring approximately .80 caliber (2.0cm), squarely hit and shattered a rib bone.

    The recovered HydraShok bullet showed damage consistent with colliding with hard tissues. The center post was broken off, the front surface of the lead core was obviously lopsided, and there were visible gouges in the lead core.

    Conclusion
    Hands and arms present commonly encountered obstacles to bullet passage. Hence a general-purpose personal defense bullet should be capable of perforating these structures and retain enough penetration potential to not only reach vitals, but to produce a wound that disrupts the spinal cord and/or facilitates rapid blood loss.

    The terminal performance demonstrated by the MagSafe .45 ACP +P Defender cartridge shows that it is incapable of meeting the challenge of a commonly encountered personal defense situation. The reasons are as follows:

    The # 2 birdshot produces tiny, pin-***** hole sized wounds.
    The amount of birdshot carried in each bullet is too little to produce substantial injury.
    Penetration depth of the birdshot is erratic.
    The diameter of the shot pattern is too large when it hits the upper torso to produce significant injury.
    The performance demonstrated by the MagSafe .45 ACP +P Defender cartridge is indicative of the kind of performance that can be expected from this entire brand of ammunition. MagSafe bullets that carry less shot, or smaller size birdshot will produce less trauma than observed in this test.

    The average diameter of the permanent cavity crushed by a sphere is approximately 43 percent of its diameter.2 Thus the # 2 birdshot used in the MagSafe bullet produces a permanent cavity that is less than .07 caliber in diameter at the midpoint of its wound track. As the velocity of the sphere decreases with penetration, so, too, does the diameter of the permanent cavity. Along the last few inches of the pellets’ wound track a permanent cavity is barely visible.

    The penetration performance of the HydraShok bullet shows that this test method is also challenging for bullets that meet IWBA Handgun Ammunition Specification penetration depth recommendations. Although the test of a single bullet is not a valid measure of overall performance, the test result suggests how easily penetration performance can be adversely affected -- producing approximately a 30 percent deficit in total penetration potential -- in common situations in which a bullet is forced to penetrate non-vital tissues to reach vital structures.

    The promoters of "performance ammunition" want prospective customers to believe that 9-11 inches of penetration is adequate. This test exemplifies the wisdom of choosing a bullet that remains intact as it penetrates and meets the 12-inch minimum penetration depth recommendation.
    Endnotes

    1. MacPherson, Duncan: Bullet Penetration, Ballistic Publications, El Segundo, CA, 1994: "Figure 5-2, Velocity Variation Correction to Measured BB Penetration Depth," p. 84.

    2. MacPherson, Duncan: Bullet Penetration, Ballistic Publications, El Segundo, CA, 1994: "Table 8-3: Projectile Penetration Model Parameters, ø (Bullet Shape Factor)," p. 205.




    Let me save you some trouble.

    Gold Dot, Ranger Talon, HST, Federal Tactical Bonded, Hydrashock, Federal Classic, Hornady TAP or Golden Saber. All in 230 Grain, standard velocity is fine; or CorBon DPX 185 Grain solid copper JHP.


    Prefragmented bullets...

    Just say no.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by kscampuscop View Post
      I have switched to a glock 21 in 45 ACP. Since my dept lets me choose my own gun and ammo I would like any information on 45 ACP duty ammo. I am currently carring cor bon 185 gr. JHP but have been thinking about magsafe in a 96 gr., another leo i know said the magsafe does not overpenetrate but is a hot round and did not think it would be good for steady use. Any comments?

      Only if your agency does a lot of work aboard aircraft that are aloft, would I then even think of carrying Magsafe. It is a gimmick load. Try Federal HST or Winchester Ranger duty rounds.

      Tell the guy who recommended Magsafe to you to spend about 30 seconds on this "series of tubes" known as the internet.

      Comment


      • #4
        +1 on the HST. It performs better than the Ranger, although if I couldn't get HST, I'd choose the Ranger as my 2nd option.

        230 grains
        NRA Life Member

        The police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence. - Sir Robert Peel

        Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. - H. L. Mencken

        Comment


        • #5
          Speer Gold Dot 230's
          The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

          Comment


          • #6
            My department went with the Winchester after some extensive testing from our range guys.

            Comment


            • #7
              ^ How long ago did they do that test?
              NRA Life Member

              The police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence. - Sir Robert Peel

              Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. - H. L. Mencken

              Comment


              • #8
                We just switched to the Federal HST +p in our G21's.
                "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
                8541tactical.com - Ammo Wallets

                Comment


                • #9
                  We are issued the Ranger 230gr JHP.
                  Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.
                  --Winston Churchill--

                  "Si vis pacem, para bellum"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I suggest a 230grain projectile. The only lighter rounds I would suggest are Hornady 200gr+p and Speer GD 200+p.

                    Great Choices IMO are: Ranger-T , Gold Dot , HST , TAP , Golden Saber , Fed. Tactical Bonded......

                    STAY AWAY FROM ALL THE "GIMMIC" ROUNDS. Choose a brand name JHP that funtions well in your Glock 21.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by FLTPRdude View Post
                      STAY AWAY FROM ALL THE "GIMMIC" ROUNDS
                      What would be some examples of these; not just .45 but any handgun caliber?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Anything touting "extreme" "explosive" or guaranteeing one shot stops.
                        "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
                        8541tactical.com - Ammo Wallets

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Things like Glaser "Safety Slugs".
                          NRA Life Member

                          The police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence. - Sir Robert Peel

                          Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. - H. L. Mencken

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Till View Post
                            What would be some examples of these; not just .45 but any handgun caliber?
                            "Extreme Shock" , "DRT" , "Glaser Safety Slug" , "Magsafe"........and even though I like Cor-Bon ammo I'm not a fan of their "Pow 'r Ball" ammo it is to light for me and seems a little gimmicky. There are no magical manstopper bullets..bottomline. I am issued the Winchester Ranger-T 180gr. (.40 s&w) / off-duty I carry the Rangers or Gold Dots
                            depending on the weapon being carried.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I echo all of the above sage advice. A good general rule is to carry the heaviest load you can for a given caliber.

                              For a .45acp, this means a 230gr jacketed hollow point. I was issued the Winchester Ranger SXT, but there are other good ones out there.
                              J. Wise

                              AR-15 - AK-47 - NFA Trusts - My Pick - Carry Guns - 1911s

                              "Some say you can tell how the world stands by the prices of AK-47s...." Chit2001

                              Any comments contained herein regarding the legality of firearms, or the application of law, are strictly applicable to Texas. If you live in CA, NY, IL, MA, D.C., etc., the above comments will probably shock you, and should be read for educational purposes only. Most likely nothing I write will apply to you.

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