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  • Protection Ofc.
    replied
    Staggering the mag with FMJ and HP ammo is a bad idea. You will experience more jams. If you are worried about getting more penetration go with a higher grain weight and use +P ammo. If you’re using any serious handgun caliber such as 9mm and up your penetration should be fine unless your using Glaser safety slugs “this ammo is for fools” and if you want to defeat cover / obstacles then you need something that will have fast a feet per second “FPS such as 1400” and higher grain weight.

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  • Mitchell_in_CT
    replied
    Originally posted by sap123 View Post
    There's way more to it than that. I could whip up a post about how terminal ballistics works, but it's way late and I'm too tired. I usually use it for the lousy caliber debating threads too. I'll PM you something in the morning since it would be kinda off topic.
    Thank you, but I have a more than passing familiarity with terminal balistics.

    I am not questioning the importance of going deep, but going wide if you can get it isn't something to pass up.

    Wow, that sounds dirty...

    Leave a comment:


  • sap123
    replied
    Originally posted by Mitchell_in_CT View Post
    Exactly what makes a deep wound track to the exclusion of all else such a priority?
    There's way more to it than that. I could whip up a post about how terminal ballistics works, but it's way late and I'm too tired. I usually use it for the lousy caliber debating threads too. I'll PM you something in the morning since it would be kinda off topic.

    Leave a comment:


  • ExplorerE321
    replied
    Originally posted by velobard View Post
    I dont' subscribe to the paper so I'd have to save up a bunch of the free weekly papers that show up in the yard to have enough for that sort of thing.

    Just take the paper from your neighbor who always wakes up after you

    Leave a comment:


  • velobard
    replied
    Yeah I did some playing around with water jugs, too. I didn't have all that many saved up and didn't feel like spending money on fresh ones just for this. I was just messing around so I didn't even think about trying to make a gelatin block or something. Maybe next time I get down to the farm to mess around I'll use some wet newsprint as a sort of ghetto gelatin. The thing is, I dont' subscribe to the paper so I'd have to save up a bunch of the free weekly papers that show up in the yard to have enough for that sort of thing.
    Last edited by velobard; 08-26-2008, 10:08 PM.

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  • Fëanor
    replied
    Stacked paper is a very hard target, and is probably harder than most barriers you should try to overcome in an actual shootout.

    Shotgun slugs can penetrate softer barriers like walls better than handgun rounds. But when you get into barriers as hard as car doors they are roughly equal (in barrier penetration only; the slug will obviously have more energy to deliver to the target). When you harden the target to the toughness of reams of paper, the handguns pull into the lead since the smaller projectile is focusing its energy on a smaller area.

    Also, as you said, you were using FMJ handgun bullets. FMJ = more penetration than lead slugs w/no jacket.

    If you are curious but not rich enough to do your own testing, theboxotruth.com has more testing information about ballistic penetration than I have time to read.

    I should also add that bullet manufacturers are constantly trying new methods of bonding the jacket to the core so depending on the ammo you're using, the jacket separating may not be an issue at all.

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  • velobard
    replied
    In nearly all cases where I would need a firearm I would need to use a ccw firearm, reliable expansion along with penetration would be the goal. And obviously overpenetration is a concern. This is why I don't use this in my carry gun right now, it's just something that I've considered in the past for winter carry when thicker penetration might be desireable due to seasonal clothing.

    A ccw handgun is a set of compromises. You need a small, concealable package that offers enough firepower to stop a threat. You can't walk around everyday with a shotgun or rifle, even though a long gun is easier to shoot accurately and is more effective. When I did my little set of amateur tests I was really just out to have some fun, not to try to conduct some in-depth analysis of cartridges. It caught my attention when I saw how this one particular load had significantly different traits and I started considering how it might be possible, or appropriate, to use that to my advantage. This was when my daily carry was a 9mm. Most of the time I don't carry that caliber now.

    For now my choice is a usually a .45 with cartridges loaded with Barnes XPB all-copper bullets. They're available from Corbon, some hunting calibers from Remington (though not .45 so far), and Taurus has used them in their Hex ammunition. From all the testing I've read, they offer very reliable expansion, with the advantage that when they open they have relatively sharp edges to their "petal" instead of a partially rounded surface that you generally get with lead. I believe those edges are a factor that helps them offer decent penetration, in spite of the fact they're relatively light at 185g in a .45 load.

    As for what happens to a FMJ bullet when it impacts, sometime take the opportunity to play around with a FMJ flat-point vs traditional FMJ. It's much more stubborn about sticking together. From what I've seen from my little tests, even with it hits a relatively hard object it's more stubborn about sticking together than ball ammo. Sure it can come apart, it just seems more resistant. That large, hard meplat gives some interesting results. Like I said, I just looked at this as food for thought. I haven't included this in my carry mag and perhaps never will. I can just see where it might offer a theoretical advantage.

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  • Mitchell_in_CT
    replied
    Originally posted by velobard View Post
    That would be great in a LE capacity, but not for CCW.
    So deep penetrating, consistently expanding ammunition is not something you look for in a carry ammo?

    Originally posted by velobard View Post
    Besides, when it comes to pure penetration I'll be my FMJ flat-tipped 9mm's will drill down through most materials further than your typical shotgun slug or regular "ball" FMJ 9mm ammo. Seriously, I've put them back-to-back.
    Have you ever thought of the problems associated with overpenetration?

    You know, like hitting people on the other side of your target who you didn't intend to injure...

    That sort of thing.

    Originally posted by velobard View Post
    And definitely further than any JHP loads that expand. I'm not talking about their ability to create a large wound tract, just a deep one.
    Exactly what makes a deep wound track to the exclusion of all else such a priority?

    Originally posted by velobard View Post
    I'm talking about a situation when you might have to punch through some sort of barrier material to get the job done.
    Yeah...interesting fact about FMJ...the jacket itself isn't all that securely fixed to the lead core. When you hit a hard barrier you might get lucky and the FMJ goes through...

    Or you might end up with the jacket shearing off and a soft unjacketed lead ball smearing apart on its way through the target loosing all its mass along the wound track.

    Leave a comment:


  • velobard
    replied
    Originally posted by formerNOPD View Post
    Body armor penetration problems + 9mm = Head shots bro.
    Agreed! Either that or a neck or pelvic shot. I started this whole thing talking about just for winter carry, when people are more likely to be wearing thicker clothes and more layers, and perhaps more likely to have jacket pockets with stuff in them. Body armor and we're talking rifle cartridge territory.

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  • formerNOPD
    replied
    Body armor penetration problems + 9mm = Head shots bro.

    Leave a comment:


  • velobard
    replied
    Originally posted by fyrdog View Post
    Umm..... Velobard, I think you need to do some more testing with 1oz 12.ga slugs. They tend to penetrate deeper than you may think, just check out the tests that the FBI conducted.
    Stay Safe

    Fyr
    I said I was just going by the casual tests that I conducted. Any 12ga slug I've used is a non-jacketed lead HP. It's fantastic at dumping a bunch of energy upon impact and creating a huge amount of trauma.

    A flat-tipped FMJ bullet often does not deform at all unless it impacts something harder. I have recovered ones that you could practically reload and fire again. It is more resistant to deformation than FMJ ball ammo. They make a very narrow wound, but it's deeper than you'd expect. I honestly haven't formal ballistics testing on large meplat FMJ handgun ammo, it's always FMJ ball or JHP or some other variation. In part of my testing, for example, a 12ga slug penetrated about 200+ pages of dry paper. The 9mm load I'm talking about went through nearly 1800 pages. Ball ammo didn't come close to that either, because it always deformed. That's just one example and I realize that when you hit something softer, like a person, the ballistics change. I'm talking about a situation when you might have to punch through some sort of barrier material to get the job done. Generally speaking JHP is a great load, but a non-deforming bullet will go deeper. It's usually intended as a target ammo because it acts as a semi-wadcutter, but it does have potential in other situations.

    Again, I'm talking about all of this in regards to ccw carry where you can't expect to have access to any other weapons.

    In case you're curious, this is the load I'm talking about. It is designed as a target load. I fired it against other things that have more muzzle energy, velocity, etc, but penetration is the one area where it impressed me.
    http://www.federalpremium.com/produc...gun.aspx?id=95

    Leave a comment:


  • sap123
    replied
    Typically you only do one type or the other. Regardless of what ammo it is (that discussion is for another thread), it's best to stick to one, although there can be decent reasons to change it up. For example, if you have a shotgun for home defense, it's been known for people to put in a couple slugs and then load it up with 00 just so if your in a situation where your 00 isn't working, the slugs will be the last up. I know people love to say "NO WAY 00 BUCK WILL DEFEAT ANYTHING" but that is a hyperbole that some wouldn't bet their life on. Others don't care and just load their boomstick with whatever they have on hand, which would still be effective as long as you're using the right load (birdshot? no.)

    Leave a comment:


  • fyrdog
    replied
    velobard-
    Besides, when it comes to pure penetration I'll be my FMJ flat-tipped 9mm's will drill down through most materials further than your typical shotgun slug or regular "ball" FMJ 9mm ammo.
    Umm..... Velobard, I think you need to do some more testing with 1oz 12.ga slugs. They tend to penetrate deeper than you may think, just check out the tests that the FBI conducted.
    Stay Safe

    Fyr

    Leave a comment:


  • velobard
    replied
    Originally posted by Mitchell_in_CT View Post
    If you are using a 9mm and need more penetration than you get with 147 grain ranger bonded (RA9B - http://www.winchester.com/lawenforce...oster_Back.pdf) then you are having issues that call for shotgun slugs or 7.62x51mm rifles.
    That would be great in a LE capacity, but not for CCW. Besides, when it comes to pure penetration I'll be my FMJ flat-tipped 9mm's will drill down through most materials further than your typical shotgun slug or regular "ball" FMJ 9mm ammo. Seriously, I've put them back-to-back. And definitely further than any JHP loads that expand. I'm not talking about their ability to create a large wound tract, just a deep one.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mitchell_in_CT
    replied
    If you are using a 9mm and need more penetration than you get with 147 grain ranger bonded (RA9B - http://www.winchester.com/lawenforce...oster_Back.pdf) then you are having issues that call for shotgun slugs or 7.62x51mm rifles.

    Leave a comment:

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