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  • Kicked out?

    Is it... legal?... for your post to kick you out on the sole basis of you not being able to show up for an emergency meeting due to a religious obligation?

    Well life is too short so love the one ya got cuz ya might get run over or ya might get shot.

  • #2
    well you leaving out a lot of details....Lets hear the story?

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    • #3
      yes, details are better, but as to being legal, I believe so since it is a voluntary program, maybe not in good taste, but since I don't know details I can't offer much more than that.
      stay safe and always remember to look up!!

      "You've been talking to yourself in the mirror again haven't you ?

      chat room

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      • #4
        its hard to say, in this day of age u can really sue anyone for practically anything. Like if u step on gum at somebodys house. U can sue them for negligence and for ruening ur shoes. I mean its a bit much, but its all real. The arguments are both good. One the person is a volunteer but the other religion is an excuse. Like for the jewish, employers must give them, im not sure but, certain sundays or sat.'s off for religous observance. I do know that at an explorer post you can not be dismissed for personal reasons against someone. If some one has a avendetta against u, than then u can sue them for ripping u off of the experince that is being a police explorer and going aginst the rules. Everyone must be given a chance.
        Last edited by abes912; 10-06-2006, 02:50 PM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by letshearit4blue
          Is it... legal?... for your post to kick you out on the sole basis of you not being able to show up for an emergency meeting due to a religious obligation?
          It's going to depend on what the minimum qualifications are for your Explorer position and whether they are reasonable with respect to your true job duties.

          For example, because people need emergency services 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, one of the minimum requirements for most law enforcement positions is a willingness to work on any day or hour and in an emergency, to be able to report for duty on short notice. If you are unable to do that, you are deemed to lack the minimum requirements of the job and may be subject to termination.

          Many years ago there was the case of a female officer who refused to wear standard police uniform pants because it violated a rule in her religion, which prohibited women from wearing men's clothing. Instead, she insisted on wearing a skirt, which she was going to have made to match the uniform. The department fired her and the courts upheld it, stating that the uniform requirement was reasonable and that she was simply no longer willing to conform to the requirementd of the job.

          Sometimes you have to be careful when you bring up religious issues. About 10 years ago, a day shift Sergeant I worked with stated that he was Catholic and that in accordance with his religious beliefs, had to have Sundays off so he could go to Mass. A call was made to the church and the priest shot him down big time, pointing out that Mass is held during both day and evening hours on Satirday and Sunday, and that the Sergeant could still work his shift and go to church in the evenings. The priest also asked the department to tell the Sergeant that they would be holding a celebratory Mass to honor his return to the church, because the Sergeant hadn't attended Mass in over 20 years.
          Going too far is half the pleasure of not getting anywhere

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          • #6
            I believe that it is legal. The Explorers are a volunteer program - you volunteered to be an Explorer, and they allowed you to be one. There isn't any sort of contract there I would think, they just choose to not allow you to participate any further.

            Given that it is a volunteer program then employment law does not apply at all, IMO.

            +1 To those who said include the whole story - no one here can really give a judgement without knowing the facts.

            Speaking from the perspective of a former senior explorer, I know there were kids kicked out of my post for similar things.

            And L-1 is probably quite correct in saying that being able to respond at any time for emergencies is part of having the position - you must be able to come when called.

            Really, more details are needed, but as I stated I think it's legal.
            For every one hundred men you send us,
            Ten should not even be here.
            Eighty are nothing but targets.
            Nine of them are real fighters;
            We are lucky to have them, they the battle make.
            Ah, but the one. One of them is a warrior.
            And he will bring the others back.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by L-1
              ...The priest also asked the department to tell the Sergeant that they would be holding a celebratory Mass to honor his return to the church, because the Sergeant hadn't attended Mass in over 20 years.
              I don't care who you are, that was funny!

              Comment


              • #8
                If you were an officer and you were needed for an emergency would you not show up because you had to go to church or something. The community you serve depends on you, and I think your God would overlook missing church (or whatever) if you were serving your fellow man. Would it be fair for someone to die because you had religious obligations? I don't think any church would approve of that.
                "My faith, my country and my family will guide me; nothing more, nothing less" -Gen. Tommy Franks

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                • #9
                  Yeah, but you can only extend that argument so far.
                  This was a training meeting with little advance notice if I understood correctly.

                  Sure, maybe attending the meeting with increase her skill level just a bit and eventaully one day she might save a life based on that, so she should miss her religious thing...but that's stretching it kinda far.

                  If there's a history of this, I might understand...if it was a one time meeting she missed, then it just doesn't make sense, unless it was for political reasons.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by AnthonyM83
                    Yeah, but you can only extend that argument so far.
                    This was a training meeting with little advance notice if I understood correctly.
                    I must have missed the training part. I thought it was an emergency. Here's what I read:

                    >>Is it... legal?... for your post to kick you out on the sole basis of you not being able to show up for an emergency meeting due to a religious obligation?<<
                    Going too far is half the pleasure of not getting anywhere

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      LH4B? We haven't heard back from ya...details?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I can stay...

                        Sorry I have not responded. The whole situation has been rather exhausting and upsetting for me.

                        OK, so this happened on Thursday:
                        My Explorer Lt. (who also happens to be my ex-boyfriend... he was NOT a Lt. when I dated him, if that helps any...) came up to me in school and told me there would be no drill that night because one of our firefighters had a son killed in Iraq and there were visiting hours that day. He also told me there was to be a meeting on Saturday and it was mandatory attendance. I asked him, did he forget it is Sukkot on Saturday (because he is ALSO Jewish, though he is not observant). He says well, you have to be there. I told him "well, I will not be there because it is a Jewish holiday and God tells me I cannot work." He told me "Be there at 9 AM on Saturday, or turn in your badge and gear."
                        I argued with him -in which I believe I was calm- briefly that it is not fair to tell me that, but he would not listen.

                        I saw him after school again, and told him I would be turning in my gear next week, because I am not going to be a part of any organization that allows its members to miss multiple meetings because of sports, but does not allow me to miss ONE meeting because of a divine commandment from God, especially when I have been to every detail, and every meeting, and I don't see half the explorers most the time because they simply do not show up and are still allowed to stay.
                        At which point he told me "Chill, hun, I'm Jewish too". (which did NOT make me chill.) I told him "Yeah, well you are not observant." He asked me to show up for an hour to the meeting, I told him the amount of time is not the issue, it is the fact it is a holiday. He told me to be there on Saturday.

                        After spending some time being very ****ed at the whole situation, I called my Advisor (who ALSO happens to be my ex's/Lt.'s Dad).
                        He has informed me that I am excused from the meeting and (among other things) the emergency meeting was called because we only have 8 explorers left, with only 4 showing up regularly, and we have not had an explorer attend a call in two months, when everyday there are multiple calls explorers can go to, and the post may be dissolved. So people not attending meetings were being told to hand in their stuff.
                        Then a bunch of other fluff was said, I won't get into it because I know how everyone hates politics, but basically he also told me I am fine I do not have to worry about my placement in the fire department, but that I do need to get off probation (which I've been on since March). I told him the only reason I am not off probation is because while I've been ready for the past three months to test off and get my pager to be on call, no one at the department was willing to test me off, and I shouldn't be getting in trouble for that because that is not my fault.
                        I was still mad though that he would not even apologize for his son's behavior, he's been taking his "authority" as Lt. too far.

                        It probably would have saved myself a lot of drama to just call my Advisor right away, but because our organization is so small, when a member of the explorer brass tells you something, it is pretty much considered to be on par as if an Advisor tells you that. It is just how it works around here.

                        Sorry, I know that was a long post, but you asked for details so I gave them.
                        Just... I felt so horrible about the whole situation I did not even go to visiting hours or the funeral for our department member's son... because I felt I wouldn't be welcome there... so now I feel like crap that I did not go because I think I probably should have.

                        I'm not sure now if I want to stay with the FD even though I've been allowed to now. The whole situation has left a bad taste in my mouth about it. I guess I should focus my anger more towards the Lt rather than the department, but it is hard.

                        ...Sorry for the long post...
                        Well life is too short so love the one ya got cuz ya might get run over or ya might get shot.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Tennsix
                          I don't care who you are, that was funny!
                          Agreed......
                          Well life is too short so love the one ya got cuz ya might get run over or ya might get shot.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Just the other day their was a artictle on O.com, and it was about an Officer who asked for a day off (for a religous holiday) he was denied the day off and did not show up to work. He was later terminated based on not showing up to work when he was scheduled. He is appealing his termination. Here is a link: http://www.officer.com/article/artic...&siteSection=1

                            Your position is a volunteer I doubt they will overturn your termination, try and find another agency that will let you be an Explorer.

                            -Mike
                            Last edited by Conallron; 10-09-2006, 12:23 PM.
                            “Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway” (John Wayne)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Conallron
                              Just the other day their was a artictle on O.com, and it was about an Officer who asked for a day off (for a religous holiday) he was denied the day off and did not show up to work. He was later terminated based on not showing up to work when he was scheduled. He is appealing his termination. Here is a link: http://www.officer.com/article/artic...&siteSection=1

                              Your position is a volunteer I doubt they will overturn your termination, try and find another agency that will let you be an Explorer.

                              -Mike
                              Thanks for the article.
                              Well life is too short so love the one ya got cuz ya might get run over or ya might get shot.

                              Comment

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