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  • #16
    The article mentions increasing the age limit to 40 for some agencies in order to acquire "mature candidates" - might as well say "We don't want to hire immature little 20 year-olds" - they'd rather hire 40 yos who will only do 10 years on than 20 yos who can do 30 on ::shrugs::

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    • #17
      I think that departments are also starting to realize that youth, college degree, and an perfect slate are not everything that should determine one's chances of becoming a LEO, but rather emphasize on someone with life experience, and who's been through some rough times and battled back to their feet. In my opinion I would rather hire an 35 year old with life experience as my cover than an 22 year old fresh out of college. Just my opinion though..............

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Xtreme View Post
        i think the purpose of this article was to show that departments were considering other factors BESIDES just how many push-ups you can do. the fact is, any academy can get anyone in enough shape to do the job. what they can't do is grant them life experience and such.
        - mike
        Agreed...... and you can only teach Mind-Set to a certain extent. You can get most people (unless medically incapable) into shape. There comes a point in time where you either do or do not.
        "He pulls a knife you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital you send one of his to the morgue. That's the Chicago way and that's how you get Capone. Now......What are you prepared to do?"
        -Malone-

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        • #19
          How does the fact that someone who can't do 30 pushups or sit ups in one minute make them un-qualified as a decent back up? The amount of PU or SU one can do per minute have no direct bearing on if they are strong enough to help me from getting may *** kicked.

          Besides - if fitness standards are SOOOOOOOO important to get in, then why do a majority of PD's not require you to meet standards over the course of your employment?

          I have always thought that agility courses were a better way to test an individual. Short bursts of speed, pulling 180 lbs of dead weight behind cover, jumping over a few fences, going through windows etc. I WILL agree that if you can't run an agility course in the alotted time then your probably not in shape enough to be a cop.

          This is more real world qualifications then any other standard. The depts that use a Agility course to test, I think, are being more realistic in thier expectations of what is needed in the form of "condition of the applicant".
          There is no greater love - than that of a man - that will give his life for another.

          If God carried a gun - it would be a 1911

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          • #20
            I believe that another PT test that needs to be incorporated into a preemployment and annual test is a 6ft wooden fence jump (smooth side). Do you know how many cops and applicants cant perform this simple, yet essential task. If you cant jump a fence, im sorry, you shouldnt be in law enforcement. I would hate to be getting my butt whipped and have my backup officer not be able to jump the fence and help me out. Sorry if this isnt a popular viewpoint, but it's the truth.

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            • #21
              Police shortages, fitness standards relaxed

              First off, let me say that I am in Minnesota and I don't think that we have a shortage of qualified applicants, but then again I am not the one doing the hiring. It would seem to me that we are getting plenty of qualified applicants. Anyway, for the areas that have a shortage of qualified applicants, what is the pay like? Is it comparable to police salaries in other areas and consistent with the cost of living in that area? I fully realize that money is a short term motivator and clearly NOT the only reason that we select law enforcement as an occupation, but it is a factor. There are certainly other factors, as well. Lets face it, some agencies are more attractive to work for than others. Maybe some of these agencies need to take a serious comprehensive approach to looking at various factors that affect recruiting and retention. Much of police work is boring and mundane, taking endless report calls, shift work, etc. can dissuade people from applying. Some agencies are more attractive because they have take home cars, good staffing levels, good equipment, training opportunities, 10 hour shifts, etc. Money is not the only answer, but it certainly is a factor to look at. I also think that some agencies need to take a good hard look at how they do things. For example, are you making the best use of your existing resources? Are you still sending a sworn officer out to take EVERY report call, or do you have some means to have people call in the go nowhere theft and vandalism calls. Do you make sworn officers do other mundane tasks that can/could be done by non-sworn personnel like Community Service Officers? Some police departments still send sworn officers to animal complaints, vehicle lockouts, fix-it tickets, etc. I do know that most police agencies are very resistant to change, but I really think that with better pay and some of the other things mentioned here, that recruiting and retention could be vastly improved.
              Last edited by Jim1648; 06-09-2007, 11:46 PM. Reason: Additional Information

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              • #22
                Originally posted by wildestkabs View Post
                I can do 65 pushups at one time. I haven't timed myself but I am pretty confident that I can do more than 30 in one minute. I also can do plenty of situps in one minute.

                Needless to say, I am in good physical shape. I am dedicated to serving the community and want to be a law enforcement officer. I am confident I will be a good fit.

                Unfortunately, in my state (AZ), I cannot be hired as a police officer. I am not a U.S. citizen.

                However, the AZ Dept. of Corrections, Maricopa County Sheriff's Office and the different cities that I have applied with, will all hire detention officers, who are permanent residents (people with green cards). There are some SOs and some other cities that I have not checked with yet, but I am sure they will hire me as well, as a detention officer, if I have a green card.

                In addition to this, some states like CO, will also hire me, as a *police officer* even though I am not a citizen.

                So if I can be hired -without being a citizen -as a detention officer in AZ, or as a police officer in another state - then I can damn well be hired as a police officer in the state of AZ. This also means, that AZ not hiring police officers who are not citizens, is definitely *not* a security or a quality issue, because that wouldn't explain why then, the same agencies are willing to hire me in detentions, or why some other state can hire me as a cop, with a green card.

                I seriously believe police agencies (like here in AZ) need to relax the citizenship requirement. They then would have a lot more dedicated, qualified, serious and physically fit applicants like me.
                First, Detention/Correction officers are not sworn.

                Second, I believe it's a federal law to require sworn police officers to be u.s. citizens

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by geek4life View Post
                  First, Detention/Correction officers are not sworn.

                  Second, I believe it's a federal law to require sworn police officers to be u.s. citizens
                  Indeed... You cannot grant arrest powers to a non-citizen. Can you imagine a resident alien arresting a natural born citizen??

                  The verbage used on this example "at the time of hire" means during an academy. POST standards upon being sworn in are a different ball of wax.

                  Just apply for citizenship. I am a naturalized citizen--who grew up in AZ--so I understand the frustration.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by mcb99 View Post
                    I think that departments are also starting to realize that youth, college degree, and an perfect slate are not everything that should determine one's chances of becoming a LEO, but rather emphasize on someone with life experience, and who's been through some rough times and battled back to their feet. In my opinion I would rather hire an 35 year old with life experience as my cover than an 22 year old fresh out of college. Just my opinion though..............
                    Ahhh yes, and they represent 15 less years of retirement contributions and payments the hiring agency will have to shell out

                    EDJ
                    "It's a game of cat and mouse. It's a game of hide and seek. Albeit games with deadly consequences. Like most games-the better you know the rules, the more likely you are to win."

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                    • #25
                      One of the police publications interviewed a boss from my department about the lowering of standards for potential recruits nation wide, and he stated that the Philadelphia Police Department would not be lowering there standards. I couldn't be any happier when I heard that news. Actually a few years ago the state of PA mandated a basic entry level PT test state wide for all municipal police applicants before they could be hired.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by geek4life View Post
                        First, Detention/Correction officers are not sworn.
                        I know that.

                        You missed the point. While a detention officer's job might be more predictable and (arguably) less risky than a police officer's, that still does not explain why a resident alien individual could be hired as a DO/CO and not as a cop

                        Originally posted by geek4life View Post
                        Second, I believe it's a federal law to require sworn police officers to be u.s. citizens
                        Incorrect.

                        More like state law, which is obviously different for every state. In AZ, you need to have US citizenship but not in CO (at least not in most departments). I can pull up a list of states which hire US permanent residents as police officers if you are interested.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by RCW View Post
                          Indeed... You cannot grant arrest powers to a non-citizen. Can you imagine a resident alien arresting a natural born citizen??
                          I find this comment a little offensive and on the ridiculous side.

                          Its not like a resident alien is an illegal. He is a legal, tax paying individual, who is on his path to applying for citizenship.

                          What is so special about a natural born citizen that he cannot be arrested by someone else, who is perfectly legal in this country?


                          Originally posted by RCW View Post
                          The verbage used on this example "at the time of hire" means during an academy. POST standards upon being sworn in are a different ball of wax.
                          Like I have mentioned, different agencies have different requirements. Some will ask for proof of citizenship at the time of application, some will ask for it at the time of hiring. Yet others won't care and will hire you as a non-citizen, while some police agencies (like LAPD), will ask that you furnish proof that you have applied for citizenship and then after you get hired, you have 3 years to naturalize. Portland (OR) Police will ask that you submit proof of getting naturalized in 18 months from the date of hire, if you started out as a PR.

                          Originally posted by RCW View Post
                          Just apply for citizenship.
                          You cannot just "apply" for citizenship. There are requirments to be met.

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                          • #28
                            I would like a list of the agencies that are allowing non citizens to have arrest power (so I could write some congressmen). I have to agree that a non citizen has no business enforcing law and/or arresting citizens (natural born or otherwise). An arrest is an act of holding someone against their will. If you are not a citizen of this country then you must be a citizen of some place somewhere, and therefore would effectively be representing (although very indirectly) that country when you deprive someone of their freedom.
                            Let me put it another way. You can be a guest in my house, and even help pay the utility bill if you stay long enough, but don't enforce the house rules against me even if I wrote them and then broke them. Its just an attitude that Americans have, don't come into "our house" and tell us what to do. These are our laws not yours. When someone goes through the process to become a citizen they become one of us and have every right in the world to enforce the laws of the country they have embraced as any natural born citizen does. They are now a citizen and we don't see them any different. But until then, they are outsiders.

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                            • #29
                              This thread is headed in the wrong direction. Ok, one more time, in a different way. Before you get into this "You are not a citizen so you cannot arrest me" stuff, you need to get a better idea of who an LPR is. I don't think you really know.

                              Also, it does not matter what you think. Period.

                              Now, an LPR by definition means someone who resides permanently in the US (just like a citizen). That again means, that an LPR has more than adequately displayed his intent on becoming a citizen in the future.

                              Law enforcement boils down to who can do the job best. If it is a citizen, so be it, if it is an LPR, so be it. But I don't think you share that belief. "Only a citizen can arrest another citizen" IMO, is a poor mentality. I see it as an officer of the law who will arrest someone who violates the law. Besides, an LPR has virtually the same employment rights that a citizen does, so why can that not be in law enforcement? If an LPR can be the CEO of a company, then why not a police officer?

                              Now, I *CAN* understand if *FEDERAL AGENCIES* might not want to hire LPRs till they have naturalized. But this is because we are talking about a whole different level of law enforcement, which does entail some security risks, like handling confidential data or files, or intelligence information, which, understandably, people would not want somebody other than a citizen to handle. Like I said, that part is understandable.

                              But when it comes down to traditional police work, then it merely boils down to who can be a good officer. There are quite a few states which don't have a citizenship requirement and I am sure their thought process would have been a little more broadminded than yours of "don't enforce the house rules against me even if I wrote them and then broke them." Wow!!

                              Originally posted by memphis PO PO View Post
                              Its just an attitude that Americans have, don't come into "our house" and tell us what to do.
                              Hey don't generalize. Don't forget that this country was built by immigrants. Thankfully, most Americans (that I know at least), don't have the negative attitude that you seem to have. All that they care for is that people who come to this country from other countries contribute positively towards the society and help this country grow.

                              Besides if an LPR can dedicatedly follow all the laws, then why can he not enforce them?

                              By the way, the army also accepts LPRs (I think the other services do as well). Actually, there are quite a few of them who are deployed and are fighting for this country right now. You have a problem with that as well?

                              Peace.
                              Last edited by wildestkabs; 06-19-2007, 08:33 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by wildestkabs View Post
                                I find this comment a little offensive and on the ridiculous side.

                                Its not like a resident alien is an illegal. He is a legal, tax paying individual, who is on his path to applying for citizenship.

                                What is so special about a natural born citizen that he cannot be arrested by someone else, who is perfectly legal in this country?




                                Like I have mentioned, different agencies have different requirements. Some will ask for proof of citizenship at the time of application, some will ask for it at the time of hiring. Yet others won't care and will hire you as a non-citizen, while some police agencies (like LAPD), will ask that you furnish proof that you have applied for citizenship and then after you get hired, you have 3 years to naturalize. Portland (OR) Police will ask that you submit proof of getting naturalized in 18 months from the date of hire, if you started out as a PR.



                                You cannot just "apply" for citizenship. There are requirments to be met.

                                Why don't I just trump you right now... I was not born in the US. I am a police officer in the US. I have some experience in what you are attempting to articulate. And my experience, and knowledge of arrest powers indicate that you need to do some more research.

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