Leader

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Future Employment Life After My Current Department. Have I become blacklisted?

Collapse

300x250 Mobile

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Future Employment Life After My Current Department. Have I become blacklisted?

    Bear with me, this is long, but it’s important (for me), and I need some honest feedback. I see no way to shorten this up because there are some very important details that I want to disclose to help people form as educated and honest opinions on my matter as possible.

    I understand the world’s not fair. I, like many of you, understand that a “buddy system” does exist in this world. Unfortunately in this profession, I believe it’s one of two places it truly shouldn’t but it does. But, I guess we’re all human.

    I was a miserable academic in high school. Graduated with a 1.3 GPA….I wasn’t much better in community college. Dropped out to enlist in the Army (Infantry) in 2003. Grew up quick, had an incredible combat deployment, which I learned a lot (tactically) from, and developed many skills. Got out in 2007 and tested at only one PD, my current employer. Was hired at 25 years old in ’09. This is a town of about 68,000 and a department of around 120 officers – many of whom have relationships within the department (spouses, in-laws, other familial relations, etc). It’s actually kind of weird to me…..Anyway….I was the first person in years to be hired without either A) Having a college degree B) Having certification and experience in another department

    Started this job off with virtually no experience or introduction to it from book work to college papers/research, etc. I didn’t pick it up as smoothly as others with their BA in CJ, but once I did pick it up I was a force to be reckoned with. I was very active, aggressive and into it. I had what we refer to in sports as “the intangibles”. The things you can’t really teach or even measure for that matter. The natural instincts to be successful on the street. I was “counseled” for going to a deposition in 2011 in attire that wasn’t approved (jeans or shorts and a tee shirt). On Friday (Aug 23 ’19) our 1st shift folks show up to a homicide depo dressed like they’ve just come from a Jimmy Buffet concert….

    2011-2015 - I’ve had some spouts with other supervisors (pretty much every sgt on shift except my own) and a couple Lts. I haven’t done anything wrong in any of the cases, but there’s definitely been a personality conflict between me and them. No discipline warranted in any case.

    In 2016 we had an outside Diversity Instructor provide training for us. During this time I was perhaps in a dark place, and maybe even a little disgruntled, but more or less dissatisfied with our administration and the internal politics lack of equality and other things going on in our department, and I find it hard to keep my thoughts to myself at times…I’ve since learned better. I made a comment during the training that lasted no more than 15 seconds, which I believe etched out the rest of my days in this department. Mind you, this was also during a time I’d been through at least one Use of Force lawsuit in which another officer’s actions brought it on (and he was involved in numerous of those). It was something to the effect of don’t do anything and you’ll stay out of trouble, and stay out of court. The admin who was present perceived this as me saying I didn’t want to be here, etc. And admittedly, many of us didn’t want to be employed by this agency for various reasons, but it’s hard to leave. I definitely should’ve kept my mouth shut that day, but again, nothing they could do to discipline me for it.

    2017 I arrive to in-service training (8am) by a couple minutes later. This happened 2 more times within the next 18 months and eventually earned days off. Rightfully so. November ’17 2 drunk driving hit & runs occur within minutes of each other in the same area. I leave the one I was initially dispatched to since our Reserves were sent to the other one. I catch the driver as he tried to run off, and I send the Reserves to the other one I was at since the driver was gone, vehicles totaled, etc. They ask me a question as I was very busy and now disengaged from that other call, and I respond annoyed with a statement that led them to break out a car window to retrieve car insurance for their report. They then write that I told them to do it, and that they did in fact break the window. Unfortunately 2 supervisors were working who were not fans of me (for years) and have unsuccessfully tried to derail me. They file an IA complaint, to which it was founded. I was given 3-6 days off for that. I never did touch the vehicle.

    2018 I take 6 weeks off for paternity leave, come back to work, execute a “combat roll” at in-service during a rifle course. Earn 15 days off for that. Mind you, a former Lt (now deceased by suicide) did the same thing years before, and high fives were exchanged on the range. But yes, I probably should’ve been disciplined for this one.

    2018 I have a VA appointment (pre-determined by the VA) 90 minutes away and I’m told I have to work until 3am (regularly getting off at 11pm). Then, I’m expected to be into work at 2:45pm with 0 sleep having been awake for 12 hours now, but would be 19 hours before I got off work, then no sleep at home with the newborn baby, drive to appt in AM, and then get back just in time to go to work with no sleep/rest. I inform the supervisors working that night that I’d use sick time for the following shift because of the sleep deprivation, and obvious safety concerns. None of them respond to that to tell me otherwise. I go to appt and the shift Lt begins texting me at 1030am about my sick slip. I’m unable to respond. By this time an investigation has already been launched that I’m unaware of for “abusing sick time/reporting for duty”. Unfortunately, it’s also “sustained/founded”. Another suspension (can’t remember how long).

    2019 I wake up late (7:50am) after taking my sleeping meds and have to be to our in-service training at 8am. I call in and explain the honest circumstances and request to go to the next training…denied. I get there 30 minutes later, having missed nothing whatsoever. We start each training with “squad meetings” and go over a department general order/guideline for 5 mins, then sit and b.s. for the other 20 mins, but that doesn’t matter. You guessed it, another IA investigation. Same result, “sustained/founded” complaint internally from the same group of upper administrators from previous incidents.

    Our Chief, a fan of mine, tried to “shelter” me from some things, but the admin had been in his ear asking what ever happened with my last discipline. They became insistent and encouraged termination from what I’m told. 45 days later he calls me in (with union representation) and asks me to resign. I say no. He say’s “that’s what I would’ve said”. He moves to terminate, but gives me a pre-termination hearing. I go before him and plead my case and ask him to ask the guys I work with and my supervisors what they think about me before he makes his final decision. He does just that by coming in on 3rd watch. He decides to keep me aboard. Through all of that I was worried about my personnel file, however to my surprise it was virtually all positive (evaluations, commendations, etc) besides the write-ups.

    I’ve received national, and local awards and honors for my self-initiated work to bridge the gap between the lower socioeconomic class and African American population and reduce juvenile delinquency and recidivism by using sports as a vehicle to drive change. Established collaborations between multiple agencies in the area and cultivated several high-dollar grants from local, state and now federal sources. I’m an overly honest guy who gets things done, and has a heart, yet can find the balance between enforcement and assistance. I truly do have a lot to offer, but I’m worried that I’m in a situation where it’s equivalent to having a felony conviction in the civilian world. I’ve never had my cert/license revoked/suspended. On paper I probably look like a problem though. But, I believe it’s all explainable. At the end of the day I admit my flaws, but they’ve been corrected. The problem is that I can’t have a single founded complaint for 5 years, and I suspect they could make a mountain out of a molehill, as they have in the past.

    So, here’s my question: Will all of this create substantial hardship in getting hired at another agency? Specifically an agency out of state? For those with administrative/hiring/interviewing/background check experience what are your thoughts? Would a typical agency be willing to take a “risk” on a guy like me? Do I even stand a chance given the totality of the circumstances? Have I essentially become blacklisted?

  • #2
    Sigh.... unfortunately I've seen your scenario play out a couple of times in my relatively short career as a city/county LEO. What I've learned: when a department paints a target on your back for certain reasons, that heat seeking missle will eventually catch up. I left before it could permanently damage my career. People mentioned before weren't so lucky and have now changed professions.

    To your questions. 10 years ago I would have said "good luck". Nowadays with the national shortage of cops, I'd say you have a fighting chance. I think it'll be tough, but some departments will take a chance on you.

    Two short stories: one cop at my PD was friends with another cop who was always a target for that stuff. Cop #1 was on 1 year probation and when he put up a slight fight into a ludacris investigation, he got the boot. Hired at another department 6 months later a couple hours away.

    Other cop was hired with me at a S.O. During probationary period, he told another county Sergeant to **** off when the 3 striper got rude with him. Let go a couple weeks later, hired by another county within a couple months.

    I have more stories like this. The more I think about it the more I know that were fired from one department and hired at another. I think you should be okay.

    Comment


    • #3
      You have created your own problems. You have major issues.
      We wouldn’t hire you nor retain you with that attitude.
      Now go home and get your shine box!

      Comment


      • Brandsome
        Brandsome commented
        Editing a comment
        I can appreciate that. If I may ask, could you describe the attitude you're referring to?

    • #4
      I have also seen several deputies have some of these issues as well. If this is something you love and want to do keep doing do it! If you do get a second chance don't f*ck it up.

      However I do agree with CCCSD's comment. Law enforcement is a paramilitary environment, sometimes you need to learn when to hush the mouth around superiors. Eat your pride, suck it up, get back in the car and go back to work. I would say unless you show departments that you priorities, time management, maturity have changed etc.. It may be a tough road ahead!

      But don't give up! stay in the fight
      Last edited by fedco95; 08-26-2019, 08:00 PM.

      Comment


      • #5
        Originally posted by Brandsome View Post
        Bear with me, this is long, but it’s important (for me), and I need some honest feedback. I see no way to shorten this up because there are some very important details that I want to disclose to help people form as educated and honest opinions on my matter as possible.

        I understand the world’s not fair. I, like many of you, understand that a “buddy system” does exist in this world. Unfortunately in this profession, I believe it’s one of two places it truly shouldn’t but it does. But, I guess we’re all human.

        I was a miserable academic in high school. Graduated with a 1.3 GPA….I wasn’t much better in community college. Dropped out to enlist in the Army (Infantry) in 2003. Grew up quick, had an incredible combat deployment, which I learned a lot (tactically) from, and developed many skills. Got out in 2007 and tested at only one PD, my current employer. Was hired at 25 years old in ’09. This is a town of about 68,000 and a department of around 120 officers – many of whom have relationships within the department (spouses, in-laws, other familial relations, etc). It’s actually kind of weird to me…..Anyway….I was the first person in years to be hired without either A) Having a college degree B) Having certification and experience in another department

        Started this job off with virtually no experience or introduction to it from book work to college papers/research, etc. I didn’t pick it up as smoothly as others with their BA in CJ, but once I did pick it up I was a force to be reckoned with. I was very active, aggressive and into it. I had what we refer to in sports as “the intangibles”. The things you can’t really teach or even measure for that matter. The natural instincts to be successful on the street. I was “counseled” for going to a deposition in 2011 in attire that wasn’t approved (jeans or shorts and a tee shirt). On Friday (Aug 23 ’19) our 1st shift folks show up to a homicide depo dressed like they’ve just come from a Jimmy Buffet concert….

        2011-2015 - I’ve had some spouts with other supervisors (pretty much every sgt on shift except my own) and a couple Lts. I haven’t done anything wrong in any of the cases, but there’s definitely been a personality conflict between me and them. No discipline warranted in any case.

        In 2016 we had an outside Diversity Instructor provide training for us. During this time I was perhaps in a dark place, and maybe even a little disgruntled, but more or less dissatisfied with our administration and the internal politics lack of equality and other things going on in our department, and I find it hard to keep my thoughts to myself at times…I’ve since learned better. I made a comment during the training that lasted no more than 15 seconds, which I believe etched out the rest of my days in this department. Mind you, this was also during a time I’d been through at least one Use of Force lawsuit in which another officer’s actions brought it on (and he was involved in numerous of those). It was something to the effect of don’t do anything and you’ll stay out of trouble, and stay out of court. The admin who was present perceived this as me saying I didn’t want to be here, etc. And admittedly, many of us didn’t want to be employed by this agency for various reasons, but it’s hard to leave. I definitely should’ve kept my mouth shut that day, but again, nothing they could do to discipline me for it.

        2017 I arrive to in-service training (8am) by a couple minutes later. This happened 2 more times within the next 18 months and eventually earned days off. Rightfully so. November ’17 2 drunk driving hit & runs occur within minutes of each other in the same area. I leave the one I was initially dispatched to since our Reserves were sent to the other one. I catch the driver as he tried to run off, and I send the Reserves to the other one I was at since the driver was gone, vehicles totaled, etc. They ask me a question as I was very busy and now disengaged from that other call, and I respond annoyed with a statement that led them to break out a car window to retrieve car insurance for their report. They then write that I told them to do it, and that they did in fact break the window. Unfortunately 2 supervisors were working who were not fans of me (for years) and have unsuccessfully tried to derail me. They file an IA complaint, to which it was founded. I was given 3-6 days off for that. I never did touch the vehicle.

        2018 I take 6 weeks off for paternity leave, come back to work, execute a “combat roll” at in-service during a rifle course. Earn 15 days off for that. Mind you, a former Lt (now deceased by suicide) did the same thing years before, and high fives were exchanged on the range. But yes, I probably should’ve been disciplined for this one.

        2018 I have a VA appointment (pre-determined by the VA) 90 minutes away and I’m told I have to work until 3am (regularly getting off at 11pm). Then, I’m expected to be into work at 2:45pm with 0 sleep having been awake for 12 hours now, but would be 19 hours before I got off work, then no sleep at home with the newborn baby, drive to appt in AM, and then get back just in time to go to work with no sleep/rest. I inform the supervisors working that night that I’d use sick time for the following shift because of the sleep deprivation, and obvious safety concerns. None of them respond to that to tell me otherwise. I go to appt and the shift Lt begins texting me at 1030am about my sick slip. I’m unable to respond. By this time an investigation has already been launched that I’m unaware of for “abusing sick time/reporting for duty”. Unfortunately, it’s also “sustained/founded”. Another suspension (can’t remember how long).

        2019 I wake up late (7:50am) after taking my sleeping meds and have to be to our in-service training at 8am. I call in and explain the honest circumstances and request to go to the next training…denied. I get there 30 minutes later, having missed nothing whatsoever. We start each training with “squad meetings” and go over a department general order/guideline for 5 mins, then sit and b.s. for the other 20 mins, but that doesn’t matter. You guessed it, another IA investigation. Same result, “sustained/founded” complaint internally from the same group of upper administrators from previous incidents.

        Our Chief, a fan of mine, tried to “shelter” me from some things, but the admin had been in his ear asking what ever happened with my last discipline. They became insistent and encouraged termination from what I’m told. 45 days later he calls me in (with union representation) and asks me to resign. I say no. He say’s “that’s what I would’ve said”. He moves to terminate, but gives me a pre-termination hearing. I go before him and plead my case and ask him to ask the guys I work with and my supervisors what they think about me before he makes his final decision. He does just that by coming in on 3rd watch. He decides to keep me aboard. Through all of that I was worried about my personnel file, however to my surprise it was virtually all positive (evaluations, commendations, etc) besides the write-ups.

        I’ve received national, and local awards and honors for my self-initiated work to bridge the gap between the lower socioeconomic class and African American population and reduce juvenile delinquency and recidivism by using sports as a vehicle to drive change. Established collaborations between multiple agencies in the area and cultivated several high-dollar grants from local, state and now federal sources. I’m an overly honest guy who gets things done, and has a heart, yet can find the balance between enforcement and assistance. I truly do have a lot to offer, but I’m worried that I’m in a situation where it’s equivalent to having a felony conviction in the civilian world. I’ve never had my cert/license revoked/suspended. On paper I probably look like a problem though. But, I believe it’s all explainable. At the end of the day I admit my flaws, but they’ve been corrected. The problem is that I can’t have a single founded complaint for 5 years, and I suspect they could make a mountain out of a molehill, as they have in the past.

        So, here’s my question: Will all of this create substantial hardship in getting hired at another agency? Specifically an agency out of state? For those with administrative/hiring/interviewing/background check experience what are your thoughts? Would a typical agency be willing to take a “risk” on a guy like me? Do I even stand a chance given the totality of the circumstances? Have I essentially become blacklisted?
        Quoted to read tomorrow after the original post is deleted
        UNITED STATES BORDER PATROL
        "90 years of tradition unhindered by progress!"


        honor first

        Comment


        • #6
          Let me ask you this. Before you left the Army were you an NCO? If the answer is yes, would you promote a Soldier with a record of performance like the one you just posted? I am a retired SNCO and I would send that Soldier to the proper programs for rehab and counseling before seeing them medically discharged or disciplinary proceedings if medical said it was appropriate.

          That being said, every single LE department both federal, state, and local generally have a "paramilitary" organizational setup. I would expect that most have no interest in hiring someone with a record like yours. I'd say you need to do some self reflection because personality conflicts are always a two way problem, which is why I would wager most don't find your attempts at humor funny. Coupled with the frequently not being at the assigned place in the proper uniform, it's not hard to see why you are struggling from the outside.

          Comment


          • Brandsome
            Brandsome commented
            Editing a comment
            Thanks for your input as well. I put in a response, but for some reason it's not appearing as I can see. I'm uncertain as to what attempts at humor you're referring to, if you could clarify. To answer your question, I did get out an NCO (E5). As for promoting a soldier with a similar record it would be taken on a case-by-case basis. Is there potential, and if so how is that determined? What good things have they done up to this point? In this particular situation enough people support me and agree that I've been essentially targeted, but to add to CCCSD's remark, I have created my own problems.
            I agree with you that most (95% or more departments) won't even bother with me given the circumstances. The good thing is that these hiccups are correctible. Could you please elaborate on the personality conflicts being a two-way problem? I do appreciate your feedback. That's obviously something that can't be used as an excuse during the interview and/or background phases, because it's not. It is a factor in certain outcomes with certain people though.

        • #7
          Originally posted by battlewagon View Post

          Quoted to read tomorrow after the original post is deleted
          I was expecting him to delete his post too LOL. I will read this novel later.

          Comment


          • Brandsome
            Brandsome commented
            Editing a comment
            HA! That's actually pretty funny. I didn't post hoping for positive reinforcement, or anything like that. It'll stay up my friend.

        • #8
          Criticism is always a hard pill to swallow, yet necessary for self-improvement.Thanks to all of you who made it through that. I want and need the truth, so I really appreciate the feedback from you all. I own what I've done and accept responsibility. It is frustrating when you look around and see so many others getting away with so many things, such as what was listed above.

          Comment


          • jwnagle
            jwnagle commented
            Editing a comment
            So personality conflicts and conflict in general takes two sides. You clashed because of personality conflicts. So did I, frequently as a SNCO, with Officers, Junior NCOs, and a lot of SNCOs as well. Mostly just Warrants that I never tangled with. The thing about those conflicts is they create a reputation that regardless of accuracy is the perception. If you know you are in a conflict like that, do some self-reflection and figure out what is causing that problem. Don't suck up to anyone but change that attitude with them, develop rapport, and get past the conflict. You're a cop, treat them like a witness that will only talk in the right condition. As for what others get away with (like your unsafe combat roll with a rifle on a range, not funny in my opinion either), if you had rapport or a better reputation as someone that gets along or at least shows respect for everyone then you might have gotten a different response. Also if the Chief loves you but a lot of others don't, the perception might be you are a kiss-up or "just another veteran with unearned respect", that is always wrong, we don't ever need to prove ourselves, we already did, but non-Green suiters don't understand that and read it wrong. The fact you are willing to take criticisms is great, just make sure that is how you portray yourself at your job.

            Last thing, get your personal stuff in order and that fixes a lot.

        • #9
          Your problem is that you did ALL of those, not just a one off.
          Now go home and get your shine box!

          Comment


          • #10
            I cant tell if this was just click bait but since Im off today and bored Ill bite....First of all be smart man. You just ranted about your department in a negative nature and clearly stated your departments name in your BIO (I wont be the blue falcon and hopefully you delete that info from your bio). You may have officers, white shirts, admin who read these forums.

            Second when it comes to background investigations, you will need to provide current/former supervisors. Unless you only provide your chiefs name and the investigator doesn't dig and reach out to your current coworkers and other supervisors then Id say you will be alright.

            I really dont know what else to say besides maybe reevaluate your calling in life. LE may not be it. See if theres something else out there that you can transfer your pension to so you dont lose that time. Cant tell if youre collecting a little extra pay from the VA but that may help compensate for difference in pay if you move on to a different career. Best of luck and keep your head up.

            Comment


            • Brandsome
              Brandsome commented
              Editing a comment
              Thank you, I appreciate that. I input the "bio" stuff assuming it'd be for administrative purposes and not be seen by the public. Oh well, I wouldn't say I ranted about the agency, but it may have come off that way, and for that I apologize. I left out many things relating to the agency itself. Again, thank you!

          • #11
            First off, it takes a brave guy to post your thread on here knowing that you were going to get bashed. When I read your thread, reminds me of myself somewhat many years ago and other people I knew. People are their own worst enemies. Being late to work and out of uniform is absolutely unacceptable. If I was your supervisor my head would explode over that. There are very few excuses that can cover that when it happens Time After Time. You need to own that and fix it ASAP. All the other stuff as far as personality conflicts and complaints, you need to make a concerted effort to keep your nose clean and your mouth shut. If that means doing a little less work and being less proactive, then do it. It is all about self-preservation. You need to do that for an extended period of time to show them that you can be rehabilitated. Once you do that for a few years, your reputation will be repaired and you can move on more easily. All of the community engagement stuff that you said you do is fantastic. If that stuff makes you happy, then I would strive to put more energy and effort into that. Positive headlines and press will pay dividends for you going forward.

            Every man man picks his own battles. When you pick yours, make sure it is worth the sacrifice.

            Comment


            • Brandsome
              Brandsome commented
              Editing a comment
              Thanks for that. It means a lot. This is the kind of feedback I was looking for, not so much "you have problems" etc.

          MR300x250 Tablet

          Collapse

          What's Going On

          Collapse

          There are currently 4842 users online. 220 members and 4622 guests.

          Most users ever online was 19,482 at 11:44 AM on 09-29-2011.

          Welcome Ad

          Collapse
          Working...
          X