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  • The End of FCIP?

    What does this mean for USMS, ICE SA, and BPA applicants?

    http://blogs.federaltimes.com/federa...ntern-program/
    The Merit Systems Protection Board issued a decision Tuesday that appears to put the controversial Federal Career Intern Program on ice.

    “The MPSB decision precludes OPM from continuing the Federal Career Intern Program until such time that OPM brings the program into compliance with Title 5,” AFGE Assistant General Counsel Andres Grajales said in a statement.

    More to come.

    UPDATE 1: MSPB ruled that the federal government has improperly placed FCIP positions in the excepted service, which let agencies avoid the legal requirement to notify the public that competitive service vacancies were available. Job seeker and plaintiff David Dean, a disabled veteran, argued that this violates his right to seek federal employment, and MSPB agreed.

    MSPB further ruled that FCIP violates veterans preference laws because it doesn’t require the government to justify the placement of positions in the excepted service. (Excepted service is primarily meant to fill jobs where it isn’t practical to hold a competition.) MSPB said FCIP has been used to fill positions with non-veterans, who ordinarily should not have been picked ahead of job seekers who were veterans.

    MSPB ordered OPM to bring FCIP into compliance with Title 5 laws governing veterans preference within 120 days. MSPB also ordered the Veterans Affairs Department to “reconstruct the hiring process” for nine positions in Columbia, S.C., that another plaintiff, Larry Evans, applied for in 2009.

    This is big news. We’ll keep looking into this — check back tomorrow for more.
    What is Perseverance?
    -Perseverance is commitment, hard work, patience, endurance.
    -Perseverance is being able to bear difficulties calmly and without complaint.
    -PERSEVERANCE IS TRYING AGAIN AND AGAIN.


    BOP - BPA - ICE

  • #2
    Beware what goes in its place...
    Last edited by madchiken; 11-05-2010, 01:11 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Maybe I'm too simplistic but couldn't they just incorporate vets prefrence in the FCIP process? i.e. go by final scores for hire? Seems to me they are throwing the baby out with the bathwater when they just need to tweek the process. I don't think they could use the argument that the FCIP is failing to get qualified people into fed positions, it's just excluding some. So fix that.

      Comment


      • #4
        It's not just vets preference that was a problem. The fact that all new hires in FCIP were excepted service and the fact that new hires had to go through a two year probation versus the standard one year. Also current feds would lose their career status if they enter an FCIP position. Also not advertising open FCIP positions so that all will have the opportunity to apply, including vets, current feds, and the general public.
        What is Perseverance?
        -Perseverance is commitment, hard work, patience, endurance.
        -Perseverance is being able to bear difficulties calmly and without complaint.
        -PERSEVERANCE IS TRYING AGAIN AND AGAIN.


        BOP - BPA - ICE

        Comment


        • #5
          Man this sounds like it could get tricky. I hope this doesn't effect the FCIP applicant pool that the USMS has right now.

          Comment


          • #6
            It might not, I hope not, but it sounds like we may be the last.

            It was kinda like the lottery to even get to the info session for the USMS.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by TheKansan View Post
              Also current feds would lose their career status if they enter an FCIP position.
              This is an issue that also seems ripe for litigation. If someone is a Fed, through the SAME department, and has been Career Permanent for years, is it really correct that that retention status can or should be stripped?

              Comment


              • #8
                What kind of changes are going to happen? Is it going to be harder for a non vet to get a 1811/federal job now?
                CBPO
                Exam: Retook exam: 11/2010
                TO: 2/2011
                Medical: 3/22/2011
                PT Test: 3/22/2011
                VBT: 3/2011
                Background: 3/2011
                Drug Test: 4/2011
                Referred to TSU: 5/2011
                PT Test 2: TBD
                FLETC: Good Question lol
                CBP Officer:

                USMS- Region 8
                Info Session 9/2009
                Interview 3/2010
                COE 5/2010
                Medical 5/2010
                Fit/Background 7/2010
                All clear as of 11/2010
                FCIP Over, all applicants scrapped. (GAME OVER) 3/2011 :'(

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Glider23 View Post
                  Maybe I'm too simplistic but couldn't they just incorporate vets prefrence in the FCIP process? i.e. go by final scores for hire? Seems to me they are throwing the baby out with the bathwater when they just need to tweek the process. I don't think they could use the argument that the FCIP is failing to get qualified people into fed positions, it's just excluding some. So fix that.
                  They were supposed to be incorporating vets preference in the hiring process under FCIP according to the EO that implemented the program. The problem is they would open several announcements under different hiring authorities. Like in one of the cases detailed they had three announcements, one for FCIP, VRA, and VEOA. If they wanted to avoid any problems they should have listed all three together. They failed to do that and as a result a person with vet preference was skipped over because they decided to hire someone under FCIP.

                  FCIP was only supposed to be used to hire for positions that were very difficult to rank the applicants, like in senior managerial, technical, or artistic type positions. Positions that have a more quality of experience than a checklist of experience. It makes it very difficult to say the hiring process is not competitive when the hiring authority has a test, and the highest scoring on the test are at the top of the certificate and are offered a job first. Chalk this one up to another win for the worker in general and vets specifically. FCIP has been used to deny vet preference since it was implemented.
                  But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new guards for their future security.

                  For the intelectually challenged: If the government screws the people enough, it is the right and responsibility of the people to revolt and form a new government.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I am currently in the ICE SA process and the vets were given preference for their test scores....I guess I am confused about what this means?? I didnt know my process was a FCIP process until I received the email yesterday for my interview....the email was titled "DCS-CI-FCIP.

                    What effect does this have for us that are currently in the interview process for ICE SA??
                    ICE SA

                    Test: July 2009
                    NOR: Sept 2009
                    Interview: Nov 2009
                    NOR: Dec 30, 2010
                    TO: Jan 3, 2011
                    Medical: Jan 14, 2011
                    Drug Screen: Jan 26, 2011
                    Cleared all Pre-Employment Checks Feb 23, 2011
                    Met with BI: March 9, 2011
                    BI Complete: April 26, 2011

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Johnnylawman38 View Post
                      What effect does this have for us that are currently in the interview process for ICE SA??
                      None, yet. OPM was given 120 days to figure out what to do, to come into compliance. If they decide not to appeal the decision then they have 120 days to change the system. If they appeal then all changes are put on hold until the appeal process is finished.
                      But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new guards for their future security.

                      For the intelectually challenged: If the government screws the people enough, it is the right and responsibility of the people to revolt and form a new government.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by kc12 View Post
                        None, yet. OPM was given 120 days to figure out what to do, to come into compliance. If they decide not to appeal the decision then they have 120 days to change the system. If they appeal then all changes are put on hold until the appeal process is finished.
                        ICE and other used FCIP not to publicly announce and let the public apply, i.e. the secret pin you needed to apply. This was a violation of title 5, so it could be very dicey, since, prior similar decisions require the reconstruction of the hiring process consistent with the law. Well that would be impossible. So it could mean status quo anti, meaning, start from scratch.
                        "From now until the end of the world, we and it shall be remembered. We few, we Band of Brothers. For he who sheds his blood with me shall be my brother." - William Shakespeare ("King Henry V")

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Scout0315 View Post
                          ICE and other used FCIP not to publicly announce and let the public apply, i.e. the secret pin you needed to apply. This was a violation of title 5, so it could be very dicey, since, prior similar decisions require the reconstruction of the hiring process consistent with the law. Well that would be impossible. So it could mean status quo anti, meaning, start from scratch.
                          I was thinking that is a possibility. If they decide that vets weren't given a fair opportunity to apply for the ICE SA, or DUSM position because they were not posted to usajobs, they could throw the entire list away, tossing everyone who isn't already on the job out of the process, and start over from scratch. That of course being a worst case scenario.
                          What is Perseverance?
                          -Perseverance is commitment, hard work, patience, endurance.
                          -Perseverance is being able to bear difficulties calmly and without complaint.
                          -PERSEVERANCE IS TRYING AGAIN AND AGAIN.


                          BOP - BPA - ICE

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TheKansan View Post
                            I was thinking that is a possibility. If they decide that vets weren't given a fair opportunity to apply for the ICE SA, or DUSM position because they were not posted to usajobs, they could throw the entire list away, tossing everyone who isn't already on the job out of the process, and start over from scratch. That of course being a worst case scenario.
                            That will not happen. As for ICE, they were under the guidelines as to how they posted their jobs. The CI position is the only position that wasnt posted on USAJOBS, and the public just as everyone else had an opportunity to apply for the position through a recruiter. Just as was on the ICE website, the CI position will not be posted on USAJOBS, so contact a recruiter, which they were telling everyone how to go by applying for the position. Another thing with ICE is that all veterans were given points on the test, and also if passed the SI/WA, received a TSL. I dont know if ICE seen this coming down, but perhaps this is one of the reasons the JAN announcement is said to be posted on USAJOBS
                            God Bless America

                            101st Airborne Division, Rakassans Air Assaultttttttt
                            3rd Infantry Division, 2BCT

                            ICE 1811
                            Applied: 6/22/09
                            Exam: 7/24/2009
                            SI/WA: 3/2/2010
                            The Call: October 26, 2010
                            PRESIDIO BOUND!!!!!!!!!!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Government jobs do not have to be posted on USAJOBS, but they must be publicly announced. Posting job announcements on agency websites fulfills that requirement. Where the issue comes in is when they are not publicly announced or are announced to a small group of people, such as only college students from XYZ college. That is what some of the agencies have been doing. Going to colleges and only taking applications from those college students. The agencies were (I don't know if they still are) asserting that the jobs were exempt from the competitive process because the new employees were being hired under FCIP. Then what is the first thing the agency required? A test so everyone could be ranked. That by definition makes the job a competitive position. All applicants are competing against other applicants for the best score, so they can be hired. Even using the test can result in a non-competitive hiring, but all tests would have to be pass/fail. How that would play out would be, everyone who passed the test will receive a tentative offer. Everyone who passes the previous phase goes through the next phase which are all pass/fail. This can get very expensive for jobs that are very competitive (like 1811's), which is why it is only supposed to be used for jobs that are difficult to fill. At the end of the process all of the applicants are rank ordered into groups based on preference points. Those who have the most points, then next category, then the next preference hirable, down to those who don't have any preference at the bottom. Everyone in each group is ranked the same. The person hired out of the top tier of applicants might not have done very well on any of the phases, but has an outstanding resume can be justified based on experience, not points or getting to the end fastest. I don't recall how the "rule of three" plays out with the non-competitive hiring, but it is supposed to be figured in. I researched all of this when I was considering filing suit not too many years ago because a non-vet was hired before me. I decided not to file suit because I was hired before the time expired.

                              In one of the cases the MSPB ruled on, the agency had three announcements. This can serve as a very good example for how hiring should have been conducted. I know it is not exact or realistic, but assumptions must be made to make the example clear. Assuming no vets applied for a job under FCIP and they only qualified for and applied for one of the preference announcements. The applicants who made it to the end stage, would be already in preference order, even though they were given to the hiring authority on different certificates. The hiring authority would have to hire the people on the highest preference certificate. The hiring authority did not do this and it was obvious since they hired non-vets over preference eligible vets and that resulted in the lawsuit.

                              FCIP was designed for jobs that were very difficult to have a competitive hiring. Taking an example from my first post hiring a senior manager. If a simple checklist (like the competitive announcements use) approach to hiring were used a VP and a manager from the same company would be rated the same. If you compare the experience of of those two people they do many of the same jobs and have very similar responsibilities. The difference is the quality of experience and scope of their control. To say someone controlling millions of dollars has the same expertise as someone who controls hundreds of thousands of dollars is a bit foolish. This is where FCIP comes in handy and why it was developed. Using FCIP the hiring authority can look at both people and determine which one has the better experience based on the quality of experience not the check list of experience, like is used in the competitive service.
                              But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new guards for their future security.

                              For the intelectually challenged: If the government screws the people enough, it is the right and responsibility of the people to revolt and form a new government.

                              Comment

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