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  • jlac20
    replied
    Originally posted by GreenLine View Post
    I actually DID read your post. Otherwise I wouldn't have replied. I agree that someone should study what they like, but while you may have said that, you also said the following:



    Not true at all, nor do you have the experience – based on your posted profile and time on the job – to say that.



    Um…no. And I’m curious exactly how many “field operations” you work in the BOP, in only 3 years, that you have gained so much experience and are able to say which background is better…



    Sorry, but again, this is total BS. CJ has NEVER been “preferred” over any other background by these agencies as long as I’ve been a Fed. This is just your take on it, and it’s completely false.



    Apparently you haven’t written very many KSA’s. Some KSA's for federal law enforcement agencies never even ask an applicant about their education: it depends on the agency and the position. And even when they do, education is normally a very minor part of a KSA unless it is something extremely specific - like you're applying to be a computer forensics agent and the job requires a degree in computer forensics. In fact, I can’t even count the number of times I’ve seen an applicant write something to the effect of “I studied X in school” – um…who cares? If I’m hiring you to be a LEO, I’m going to train you, anyway, if for nothing else than for liability reasons. I am certainly not going to take your time in a classroom as some kind of qualification that you can do the job. If you think agencies are putting that much stock in your education creds on a KSA, you’re sorely mistaken. I'd rather hire the guy with a basketweaving degree AND 4 years of responsible work experience - doing just about anything - than someone with just a CJ degree. And the number of 1811's with oddball degrees and backgrounds who are on the job today tells me that other LE managers have thought the same thing when filling their ranks with new-hires. Unless it's a very specialized, technical degree, a degree only shows that you stuck with something and that you can be taught. That's all.

    If you read what I posted, you'll see that I said CJ degrees were in the minority among agents I’ve known, but I’m willing to bet that in my years as an 1811 and with multiple agencies, I know a LOT more agents than you do. I don’t know where you’re getting this 40% figure, but I have yet to see it. The only way it would even come close to being accurate would be Fed-LE-wide, agents and non-agents. In my experience, it doesn't even come close to being accurate among 1811's (unless most agents lie about their backgrounds to one another - ?) – that’s the point I was disputing.



    I would like to know how you can be privy to so much intel on 1811 hiring by these agencies when you 1) are not an 1811 and 2) don't work for any of them. I think your heart is in the right place in wanting to help a kid out and give him information, but you're throwing out information that you have no way of knowing.
    Actually I dont have to be an 1811 to know 1811s. If you knew anything about me, my 4 years in the BOP is just that, 4 years in the BOP. I spent 5 years local PD in a Drug/Gang unit, I have been with JTTF now for over 30 months, so I think I have a little experience for what im talking about. Not only did I finish undergrad Summa Cum Laude, but also a 4.0 in Grad, so I think I know enough to speak about the education side of things also.

    When I said about 40% of LE covered positions are by individuals with some education in criminal justice, no where did I state anything about an 1811 being that only covered position, and nowhere did the OP state he wanted to be an 1811. As for the KSAs for most LE positions, there will be a choice on there to select education as a form of experience to that particular question, and its normally the next to last answer

    Leave a comment:


  • formerusssnusmc
    replied
    Federal LEO

    Disregard all posts on this forum.

    Here is all you need:

    A Degree and 3.0 and above GPA.

    That is all you need regarding education and to be deemed competitive.

    The only instance that is not true: Some agencies may put up an annoucement and require a certain major. However, MOST simply require the piece of paper (degree).


    Do what you like to do. CJUS is easy, business will give you tools you will use the rest of your day-to-day life.

    **disclaimer** be sure to check - some agencies put up the exact skill sets they are looking for.
    Last edited by formerusssnusmc; 03-19-2010, 02:16 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • GreenLine
    replied
    If you took the time out to read my post, I told the kid to major in what ever he has a passion for, and if thats criminal justice, thats what he should major in. Like I stated before, Superior Academic Achievement is a great thing to have, and the odds of you having a very high GPA majoring in something that doesnt interest you is very low. I have worked local PD, in which I stated before, a CJ degree was the preferred degree. Something else you quoted is far wrong by saying individuals with criminal justice degrees is the minority. I think the last census I seen for federal law enforcement agencies, individuals with some form of study in criminal justice makes up about 40% of law enforcement covered positions, so this is no where near the minority. You right, this degree path has worked for me, and it will not for others, I just think the kid should do something that interest him. If this is his dream, why look at a fall back degree? As far as it being the best academic path, personally I think it is, and I am one that has sat on a few hiring panels. For the local PD, CJ degrees were the preferred degree. Like some stated, and so did I, on the federal side, any degree will work, but if you go into a federal agency applying for a IT position that is what you are, IT. My point is this, if its you and I, applying for one position, and its a law enforcement covered position, once we take the KSA for some of these positions, it will ask have you had any classroom training or any sort of training on things such as interviewing, affidavits, etc. A person with a CJ degree 9 times out of 10 will be able to answer as having some form of training. A person with a degree in computer science cant, unless the training came from somewhere outside of his education. On the federal side, they suppose to be doing away with the KSAs, but it hasnt happened yet, but until that time, a CJ degree will allow you to answer more questions on a law enforcement position KSA than would most other degrees
    I actually DID read your post. Otherwise I wouldn't have replied. I agree that someone should study what they like, but while you may have said that, you also said the following:

    When it comes to law enforcement, a CJ degree is the most preferred degree, regardless of what some of the posters on this board states.
    Not true at all, nor do you have the experience – based on your posted profile and time on the job – to say that.

    When it comes to str8 kick *** field operations, CJ degree is the best.
    Um…no. And I’m curious exactly how many “field operations” you work in the BOP, in only 3 years, that you have gained so much experience and are able to say which background is better…

    With DEA, ATF, FBI, and NCIS, a degree in CJ is the most preferred degree
    Sorry, but again, this is total BS. CJ has NEVER been “preferred” over any other background by these agencies as long as I’ve been a Fed. This is just your take on it, and it’s completely false.

    I just know that, when it come to a KSA, which is a pre qualification for alot of federal jobs n law enforcement, a person with a CJ degree can answer and verify as to having some knowledge in some of the questions
    Apparently you haven’t written very many KSA’s. Some KSA's for federal law enforcement agencies never even ask an applicant about their education: it depends on the agency and the position. And even when they do, education is normally a very minor part of a KSA unless it is something extremely specific - like you're applying to be a computer forensics agent and the job requires a degree in computer forensics. In fact, I can’t even count the number of times I’ve seen an applicant write something to the effect of “I studied X in school” – um…who cares? If I’m hiring you to be a LEO, I’m going to train you, anyway, if for nothing else than for liability reasons. I am certainly not going to take your time in a classroom as some kind of qualification that you can do the job. If you think agencies are putting that much stock in your education creds on a KSA, you’re sorely mistaken. I'd rather hire the guy with a basketweaving degree AND 4 years of responsible work experience - doing just about anything - than someone with just a CJ degree. And the number of 1811's with oddball degrees and backgrounds who are on the job today tells me that other LE managers have thought the same thing when filling their ranks with new-hires. Unless it's a very specialized, technical degree, a degree only shows that you stuck with something and that you can be taught. That's all.

    If you read what I posted, you'll see that I said CJ degrees were in the minority among agents I’ve known, but I’m willing to bet that in my years as an 1811 and with multiple agencies, I know a LOT more agents than you do. I don’t know where you’re getting this 40% figure, but I have yet to see it. The only way it would even come close to being accurate would be Fed-LE-wide, agents and non-agents. In my experience, it doesn't even come close to being accurate among 1811's (unless most agents lie about their backgrounds to one another - ?) – that’s the point I was disputing.

    As for the foreign language, the FBI is mainly interested in that in which I stated earlier in one of my other post. I stated the FBI has many different paths one could take where many degrees are good. Anyone who recently applied to the DEA announcement with no experience, and no social science degree didnt stand a chance with the questions that were asked of you to check for the grades
    I would like to know how you can be privy to so much intel on 1811 hiring by these agencies when you 1) are not an 1811 and 2) don't work for any of them. I think your heart is in the right place in wanting to help a kid out and give him information, but you're throwing out information that you have no way of knowing.

    Leave a comment:


  • jlac20
    replied
    Originally posted by Armed Greeter View Post
    SHU,

    Yep, that is pretty much common knowledge. I hope the poor kid who posted the original question is not taking this guy seriously
    Its no point in me arguing about it. I bet we can put my educational background up against yours in any law enforcement position outside of something like IRS CI, EPA CI, etc and during the pre qualifications for the position to get a NOR, if only using education most individuals with no experience and a degree outside of CJ, Psychology, and a few others dealing with social science, will not receive a favorable rating for the position. What a degree in CJ does is give individuals without experience a chance to get a decent NOR, or atleast be able to check some of the answers on the pre qualification grade questions.

    As for the foreign language, the FBI is mainly interested in that in which I stated earlier in one of my other post. I stated the FBI has many different paths one could take where many degrees are good. Anyone who recently applied to the DEA announcement with no experience, and no social science degree didnt stand a chance with the questions that were asked of you to check for the grades

    Leave a comment:


  • Armed Greeter
    replied
    Originally posted by SHU View Post
    Noway Jose. Accounting, IT, or foreign language degree: farsi, arabic, chinese if you want to be tops in the job process for a big three letter agency.
    CJ is a dime a dozen.
    SHU,

    Yep, that is pretty much common knowledge. I hope the poor kid who posted the original question is not taking this guy seriously

    Leave a comment:


  • WesternWayneCop
    replied
    Originally posted by NavyMan View Post
    Hi everyone,

    I know I'm planning way in advance but this question has been burning in my mind for a while now...I'm currently serving in the Navy, and I have 4 yrs left out of a 5 yr contract. I joined to use the GI Bill to get a degree in Criminal Justice and to serve my Country. After I get my degree in CJ my dream is to become a LEO. My question is, I am going to have to have knee surgery while in the Navy, i.e, next month, and was wondering if this would DQ me from getting hired onto a Police Dept. If the Navy isnt going to discharge me for it, I see no reason why a Police Dept. wouldnt hire me. Any input? Thank you!
    Doubtful, as long as you can pass the physical and medical tests.

    Leave a comment:


  • SHU
    replied
    Originally posted by jlac20 View Post
    With DEA, ATF, FBI, and NCIS, a degree in CJ is the most preferred degree .
    Noway Jose. Accounting, IT, or foreign language degree: farsi, arabic, chinese if you want to be tops in the job process for a big three letter agency.
    CJ is a dime a dozen.

    Leave a comment:


  • AmicusLex
    replied
    Originally posted by jlac20 View Post
    I agree with all you said, and like I stated in a earlier post, I think a psychology degree is the best degree in law enforcement. I have been in law enforcement now for a while, and have worked with individuals with many different degrees. I just know that, when it come to a KSA, which is a pre qualification for alot of federal jobs n law enforcement, a person with a CJ degree can answer and verify as to having some knowledge in some of the questions
    Thank you Jlac. I hear you with respect to the KSA's. Also to be fair, I did have a law degree which meant I had experience doing certain things that helped with those types of questions. That being said, since the OP really has a long way to go, I would recommend this to the OP: You have time on your side, use it. Research the agencies or departments you would like to work for, this forum is an invaluable tool as well. Try and take a look at the applications for agencies or departments that you are interested in. With respect to the KSA's, you can try and get experience in those areas with internships, volunteering and other activities.

    With time on your side and an understanding of what is being looked for, you can seek out experiences which will prove useful to getting your application before real human beings that you can speak to. The other plus side is that you will be closer to your chosen field and you can evaluate if you really want to pursue it.

    Leave a comment:


  • jlac20
    replied
    Originally posted by AmicusLex View Post
    First, thank you for your service to our country.

    Second, I'm not a LEO but currently in process to become a Special Agent, pending my background investigation. To be fair a great deal of my information comes as a result of my focus on obtaining a Federal position and I'm not sure how my information relates to the State or Local level. From what I have read on this forum, it does not appear that there is a huge difference in mentality.

    I was concerned at first with my lack of a CJ degree, my degree is in Economics. I had no LE experience at any level and while I do have legal experience, it was not in prosecution. Nearly every agent I spoke with across many agencies told me that what the hiring panels actually welcomed degrees in fields other than CJ. As mentioned degrees in Accounting, Finance, Economics, Computer Science can be very useful because hiring panels aren't hiring lone wolves but rather members of a team. Most organized (and unorganized) crime has a large financial component and agencies are looking for agents who can understand those areas and bring that knowledge to bear on the team.

    A Deputy U.S. Marshal was telling me that one of the most useful members on his Fugitive Task Force was an Special Agent with a different agency who had both a BA and an MA in psychology. The Agent would really be able to add useful insights based on patterns he observed. I have heard similar stories about Agents with different academic backgrounds.

    Furthermore, as many have said, you will receive extensive training in CJ at the academy and on the job. It may not be the worst idea to get a background that is not as taught or that may be harder to pick up.

    At the end of the day, hiring panels are looking for good additions to the team. The sheer number of applicants with degrees in CJ mean that other backgrounds are in shorter supply. Does it mean that you will win out, perhaps not. But with your experience in the Navy, you will have demonstrated many positive things already. Choosing a background that may bolster other critical, but in shorter supply skills, that LE needs will likely make you a stronger candidate. Computers and technology play a huge role in the war on crime at every level. Agents or officers with computer science degrees bring special insight to their teams. The same can be said of many other disciplines.

    While experience is perhaps the best tool in LE, I think you should also keep in mind that you should also choose a discipline that excites you, after all you will be spending 4 years studying it. Doing well in a discipline is also looked upon favorably by hiring panels. Worse comes to worse, you can punt. If your program allows it, do a minor in CJ and a major in another discipline. Or take classes outside your major and list that on your applications. Ultimately, a good candidate is a good candidate regardless of what discipline they choose to pursue. It will be your interview and how you present yourself to the hiring panels that will make the difference. Also, and I'm sure you know this but a clean record and examples of good judgment on your part will go a long way

    I think you have the right idea about thinking about these things now and I wish you the best of luck.

    Stay safe.
    I agree with all you said, and like I stated in a earlier post, I think a psychology degree is the best degree in law enforcement. I have been in law enforcement now for a while, and have worked with individuals with many different degrees. I just know that, when it come to a KSA, which is a pre qualification for alot of federal jobs n law enforcement, a person with a CJ degree can answer and verify as to having some knowledge in some of the questions

    Leave a comment:


  • AmicusLex
    replied
    First, thank you for your service to our country.

    Second, I'm not a LEO but currently in process to become a Special Agent, pending my background investigation. To be fair a great deal of my information comes as a result of my focus on obtaining a Federal position and I'm not sure how my information relates to the State or Local level. From what I have read on this forum, it does not appear that there is a huge difference in mentality.

    I was concerned at first with my lack of a CJ degree, my degree is in Economics. I had no LE experience at any level and while I do have legal experience, it was not in prosecution. Nearly every agent I spoke with across many agencies told me that what the hiring panels actually welcomed degrees in fields other than CJ. As mentioned degrees in Accounting, Finance, Economics, Computer Science can be very useful because hiring panels aren't hiring lone wolves but rather members of a team. Most organized (and unorganized) crime has a large financial component and agencies are looking for agents who can understand those areas and bring that knowledge to bear on the team.

    A Deputy U.S. Marshal was telling me that one of the most useful members on his Fugitive Task Force was an Special Agent with a different agency who had both a BA and an MA in psychology. The Agent would really be able to add useful insights based on patterns he observed. I have heard similar stories about Agents with different academic backgrounds.

    Furthermore, as many have said, you will receive extensive training in CJ at the academy and on the job. It may not be the worst idea to get a background that is not as taught or that may be harder to pick up.

    At the end of the day, hiring panels are looking for good additions to the team. The sheer number of applicants with degrees in CJ mean that other backgrounds are in shorter supply. Does it mean that you will win out, perhaps not. But with your experience in the Navy, you will have demonstrated many positive things already. Choosing a background that may bolster other critical, but in shorter supply skills, that LE needs will likely make you a stronger candidate. Computers and technology play a huge role in the war on crime at every level. Agents or officers with computer science degrees bring special insight to their teams. The same can be said of many other disciplines.

    While experience is perhaps the best tool in LE, I think you should also keep in mind that you should also choose a discipline that excites you, after all you will be spending 4 years studying it. Doing well in a discipline is also looked upon favorably by hiring panels. Worse comes to worse, you can punt. If your program allows it, do a minor in CJ and a major in another discipline. Or take classes outside your major and list that on your applications. Ultimately, a good candidate is a good candidate regardless of what discipline they choose to pursue. It will be your interview and how you present yourself to the hiring panels that will make the difference. Also, and I'm sure you know this but a clean record and examples of good judgment on your part will go a long way

    I think you have the right idea about thinking about these things now and I wish you the best of luck.

    Stay safe.

    Leave a comment:


  • Armed Greeter
    replied
    Originally posted by GreenLine View Post
    This is completely false. There is no "best" degree for feds (or for any LE job, IMO). In my entire career, the number of CJ graduates I've known who worked for the above agencies have been far in the minority. And yet people have still managed to get hired by those outfits AND do a fantastic job working cases, crime scenes, and whatnot. All with no help from a CJ background.

    I'm glad you love CJ so much and that's fine. But I would certainly not push it to a young kid as the "best" academic path for LE, simply because it may have been the best for you. Collective experience and the number of highly-successful LEO's running around who never gave CJ a second thought shows that a person can study whatever they want. As long as they do well, most agencies I've known of could care less.



    No offense, but the only "bad advice" I see in this thread is not coming from people telling a kid to study whatever he wants and keep his (or her) options open, but from the guy saying "CJ is best....CJ is best" simply because it happened to work for him. I would like to know what basis exists for this "LE-agencies-prefer-CJ" data, because I have yet to hear of it.
    Don't even waste the time arguing with this guy. If you do, you are just going to go in circles and continue to split hairs.

    Leave a comment:


  • jlac20
    replied
    Originally posted by GreenLine View Post
    This is completely false. There is no "best" degree for feds (or for any LE job, IMO). In my entire career, the number of CJ graduates I've known who worked for the above agencies have been far in the minority. And yet people have still managed to get hired by those outfits AND do a fantastic job working cases, crime scenes, and whatnot. All with no help from a CJ background.

    I'm glad you love CJ so much and that's fine. But I would certainly not push it to a young kid as the "best" academic path for LE, simply because it may have been the best for you. Collective experience and the number of highly-successful LEO's running around who never gave CJ a second thought shows that a person can study whatever they want. As long as they do well, most agencies I've known of could care less.



    No offense, but the only "bad advice" I see in this thread is not coming from people telling a kid to study whatever he wants and keep his (or her) options open, but from the guy saying "CJ is best....CJ is best" simply because it happened to work for him. I would like to know what basis exists for this "LE-agencies-prefer-CJ" data, because I have yet to hear of it.
    If you took the time out to read my post, I told the kid to major in what ever he has a passion for, and if thats criminal justice, thats what he should major in. Like I stated before, Superior Academic Achievement is a great thing to have, and the odds of you having a very high GPA majoring in something that doesnt interest you is very low. I have worked local PD, in which I stated before, a CJ degree was the preferred degree. Something else you quoted is far wrong by saying individuals with criminal justice degrees is the minority. I think the last census I seen for federal law enforcement agencies, individuals with some form of study in criminal justice makes up about 40% of law enforcement covered positions, so this is no where near the minority. You right, this degree path has worked for me, and it will not for others, I just think the kid should do something that interest him. If this is his dream, why look at a fall back degree? As far as it being the best academic path, personally I think it is, and I am one that has sat on a few hiring panels. For the local PD, CJ degrees were the preferred degree. Like some stated, and so did I, on the federal side, any degree will work, but if you go into a federal agency applying for a IT position that is what you are, IT. My point is this, if its you and I, applying for one position, and its a law enforcement covered position, once we take the KSA for some of these positions, it will ask have you had any classroom training or any sort of training on things such as interviewing, affidavits, etc. A person with a CJ degree 9 times out of 10 will be able to answer as having some form of training. A person with a degree in computer science cant, unless the training came from somewhere outside of his education. On the federal side, they suppose to be doing away with the KSAs, but it hasnt happened yet, but until that time, a CJ degree will allow you to answer more questions on a law enforcement position KSA than would most other degrees

    Leave a comment:


  • GreenLine
    replied
    When you applying for Special Agent positions with like DEA, ATF, ICE, and in some fields of the FBI, the CJ degree is the best because with that degree, you have some knowledge of investigations, crime scenes, and criminal procedure.
    This is completely false. There is no "best" degree for feds (or for any LE job, IMO). In my entire career, the number of CJ graduates I've known who worked for the above agencies have been far in the minority. And yet people have still managed to get hired by those outfits AND do a fantastic job working cases, crime scenes, and whatnot. All with no help from a CJ background.

    I'm glad you love CJ so much and that's fine. But I would certainly not push it to a young kid as the "best" academic path for LE, simply because it may have been the best for you. Collective experience and the number of highly-successful LEO's running around who never gave CJ a second thought shows that a person can study whatever they want. As long as they do well, most agencies I've known of could care less.

    Everyone keeps telling this young man not to get a CJ degree but that is bad advice.
    No offense, but the only "bad advice" I see in this thread is not coming from people telling a kid to study whatever he wants and keep his (or her) options open, but from the guy saying "CJ is best....CJ is best" simply because it happened to work for him. I would like to know what basis exists for this "LE-agencies-prefer-CJ" data, because I have yet to hear of it.
    Last edited by GreenLine; 03-18-2010, 06:30 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • jlac20
    replied
    Originally posted by Armed Greeter View Post
    They don't need to ask. You sign a waiver releasing your medical history. If you had no issues, they have no reason to ask. My background was delayed several months because of a torn labrum (shoulder) I had surgery on several years before. My friend was on a medical retirement from a fire department from a messed up hand, which slowed him down. A former chief of mine's son made the mistake of saying that his back hurts sometimes and he was sent into get another exam.
    Originally posted by FAM Hopeful View Post
    My friend had medical issues that slowed him up bigtime. I don't remember how it came up or who you have to disclose it to, but it is part of your history/background. It is definately subjective depending on the agency, investigator, etc. I don't think the actually investigator will ask you, but when your file goes to OPM, they decide wether to look further into it. My friend said that getting doctor's sign-offs and all the other stuff was a [email protected]^#*&. If I remember right, it is illegal to ask in some states but I signed a release for my medical history. The government has a way of getting around that stuff.
    I have stated this once, I will state it again. Your medical has nothing to do with your background nor getting a clearance. Your past surgeries has to do with passing medical. I can be in a coma and still get a top secret clearance, but I will not pass medical, which will hold someone up in the process. You can pass the background and not pass medical. If you notice, when filling out the SF86, there is nothing about medical on there. When you get to to end of the SF86, when it starts talking about medical, thats an entirely different form.

    Leave a comment:


  • FAM Hopeful
    replied
    My friend had medical issues that slowed him up bigtime. I don't remember how it came up or who you have to disclose it to, but it is part of your history/background. It is definately subjective depending on the agency, investigator, etc. I don't think the actually investigator will ask you, but when your file goes to OPM, they decide wether to look further into it. My friend said that getting doctor's sign-offs and all the other stuff was a [email protected]^#*&. If I remember right, it is illegal to ask in some states but I signed a release for my medical history. The government has a way of getting around that stuff.

    Leave a comment:

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