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  • Veteran preference, what if its not given?

    Curious as to how a state agency gives the legally required preference to a disable veteran or veteran?
    Last edited by ryker; 03-29-2012, 08:40 AM.
    Any views or opinions presented by this prenomen are solely those of a burlesque author and do not necessarily represent those of a LEA or caementum couturier.

    nom de plume

    This is the internet- take all information with a grain of salt. Such could be valid and true or could be typed just for playing devils advocate.

  • #2
    Not all agencies give a veteran's preference. It seems that campus police agencies tend to prefer applicants with degrees. Is it possible that candidate B brought something to the table other than just "knowing somebody".

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    • #3
      Agencies do have some flexibilities in hiring.

      When I worked for NY state, every civil service position had an exam with a score out of 100. Max score was 110 (if you had 100 pts on test + 5 vet + 5 vet disability).

      When hiring off the list, managers had the "rule of 3", which meant that the top three scores would be called for interviews/eligible for hiring.

      So if Person A was 110 (arguments sake) and Person B was within the next top 3 scores (lets say he had a 100, again arguments sake), they could skip over Person A for hiring and hire Person B.

      Some agencies even if vets are strong preferred (fed gov) can still find ways around, such as being able to articulate to writing to HR why Person B may be vastly more qualified than Person A.

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      • #4
        http://www.dol.gov/compliance/audience/veterans.htm

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        • #5
          Originally posted by ryker View Post
          Person A: has 8 years active duty USMC. Meritoriously promoted twice and was a NCO for 6 of those 8 years. Sgt for the last 4. Rifle expert third award and other awards comparable to a 8 year Sgt. Also 1 year National Guard with MP school - class leader as well. Top Gun shooter at mandate. Associate degree in Management Development. Martial Art training in Judo and Jujitsu. 205lbs lean. Ran the agencies fitness test as the fastest in that recruit group.

          Person B: knew somebody with that agency, came in last for the males on the time to run the physical course. Maybe 135lbs with duty gear on. No other law or military experience.
          All this is meaningless in civil service. Like the constant said, applicants are rated based on the number of correct answers they give to job related questions in the written and oral exams. Once their tests are scored, veterans points are added (my agency gives three points).

          Generally speaking, hiring is done based on your scores (highest gets picked first, next highest gets picked second, etc. Under the Rule of Three, they can choose anyone from the top three scores without giving a reason.

          The whole point is hiring is based on a demonstrated ability to do the job as established through a work related exam and not such things as the ability to shoot a rifle, or a degree in management, or being an NCO, which in reality have little to do with writing a traffic citation, investigating a burglary, driving primary in a pursuit or diffusing a domestic disturbance.
          Going too far is half the pleasure of not getting anywhere

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          • #6
            I don't know about the state's rules for veteran's preference, but federally, even if Person A had all that going for them, they would still not be eligible for a veteran's preference unless that had a campaign medal. Sucks, but that's how it was written and its never been changed.

            I have 4 years active USMC, 7 years USMCR, and 5 years USNR (with a direct commission), but I have never received the 5-point preference for any of the jobs I've applied for. You basically have to have a conflict occur while you're in for which you end up getting a campaign medal - i.e. it's basically luck of the draw.
            "Sir, does this mean that Ann Margaret's not coming?"

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            • #7
              Originally posted by ryker View Post
              I know two guys that applied for a state position at the same time. Both applicants were Mandated at the same time and have equal law enforcement experience.

              Person A: has 8 years active duty USMC. Meritoriously promoted twice and was a NCO for 6 of those 8 years. Sgt for the last 4. Rifle expert third award and other awards comparable to a 8 year Sgt. Also 1 year National Guard with MP school - class leader as well. Top Gun shooter at mandate. Associate degree in Management Development. Martial Art training in Judo and Jujitsu. 205lbs lean. Ran the agencies fitness test as the fastest in that recruit group.

              Person B: knew somebody with that agency, came in last for the males on the time to run the physical course. Maybe 135lbs with duty gear on. No other law or military experience.


              Person A never got an interview, call back, or response after the physical.

              How would one know if a veteran benefit was given?
              How much of an negative effect does a lean Marine look for a liberal college campus police?
              Sorry to burst your bubble, but just because Person A served in the military, doesn't make Person A a better candidate than Person B.

              Agencies look at more than just the score on a physical ability test, police work isn't all about busting heads and kicking in doors.

              Let's say there are some things you didn't know about Person A and Person B.

              Person B just so happens to have a Masters degree, and 5 years of progressively difficult work experience. Person B though he didn't do as well on the physical test as Person A, scored a near perfect score on the written test, and his writing sample was top notch. Meanwhile Person A barely passed the written, and his writing sample was lackluster. Person A also had a rough credit history, and a few recent traffic tickets on his record, while Person B had good credit, and a perfectly clean traffic history. A further look into Person A's criminal history revealed an expunged record for theft, meanwhile Person B had no record.

              Now looking at the other facts that I added, who is the better candidate?
              What is Perseverance?
              -Perseverance is commitment, hard work, patience, endurance.
              -Perseverance is being able to bear difficulties calmly and without complaint.
              -PERSEVERANCE IS TRYING AGAIN AND AGAIN.


              BOP - BPA - ICE

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              • #8
                ---------------------------------------------
                Last edited by ryker; 08-20-2010, 08:09 AM.
                Any views or opinions presented by this prenomen are solely those of a burlesque author and do not necessarily represent those of a LEA or caementum couturier.

                nom de plume

                This is the internet- take all information with a grain of salt. Such could be valid and true or could be typed just for playing devils advocate.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Sounds like business as usual in the great state of LOUISIANA. Seen this many times. Probably more prevalent in the south.
                  Crack is only a problem when you don't have enough!

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ryker View Post
                    There was no written exam. No testing. No interview.

                    Person A had a solid progressive resume including civilian managment position. Does qualify for veteran and disable veteran status. Excelent credit. No recent traffic citations. Possible bad review from an mandate instructor who had a grudge. Would have solid reviews from last civilian employer and current LEO.

                    Person B might have a 2 or 4 year degree.

                    I know who I would rather back me up on a call.
                    Person A also came in acting like he was a superior candidate when he had no clue what Person B was bringing to the table.

                    You are not entitled to anything. None of us are, regardless of our qualifications, experience, or anything else. Get over yourself. I myself applied at over 20 agencies and was rejected by more than one before being hired. Who cares if you weren't selected at one agency, there are hundreds more where you would be a great candidate.

                    Just as an example, I have seen an Iraq war veteran who served 5+ years as a cop with a big city PD, get rejected by the state highway patrol, meanwhile, a 21 year old with no experience was hired. There could be any number of reasons why, but the point is that your military service, education, experience, etc. do not entitle you to a job, and no agency has to hire you.
                    Last edited by TheKansan; 01-10-2010, 09:32 PM.
                    What is Perseverance?
                    -Perseverance is commitment, hard work, patience, endurance.
                    -Perseverance is being able to bear difficulties calmly and without complaint.
                    -PERSEVERANCE IS TRYING AGAIN AND AGAIN.


                    BOP - BPA - ICE

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ryker View Post
                      How much of an negative effect does a lean Marine look for a liberal college campus police?

                      I don't think it looks bad. But if I was the chief of a campus police dept. and Canidate A has all that but no college and Canidate B has a degree I would probably go with Canidate B because he can relate to the community he is policing (a college) better than Canidate A. And this advice is brought to you by a Marine who spent 17 years in the reserves too.
                      Today's Quote:

                      "The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits."
                      Albert Einstein

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                      • #12
                        deleted.................
                        Last edited by Shlomitov613; 07-30-2014, 03:39 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ryker View Post
                          There was no written exam. No testing. No interview.

                          Person A had a solid progressive resume including civilian managment position. Does qualify for veteran and disable veteran status. Excelent credit. No recent traffic citations. Possible bad review from an mandate instructor who had a grudge. Would have solid reviews from last civilian employer and current LEO.

                          Person B might have a 2 or 4 year degree.

                          I know who I would rather back me up on a call.
                          So can you tell us what the hiring criteria is? Is this a civil service agency or an at will/patronage agency?

                          It's hard to respond if you don't tell us what the rules are.
                          Going too far is half the pleasure of not getting anywhere

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TheKansan View Post
                            There could be any number of reasons why, but the point is that your military service, education, experience, etc. do not entitle you to a job, and no agency has to hire you.
                            The OP asked how he could find out if veteran's preference was properly applied. I don't see anything claiming he was entitled to a job.
                            "I am a Soldier. I fight where I'm told and I win where I fight." -- GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

                            "With a brother on my left and a sister on my right, we face…. We face what no one should face. We face, so no one else would face. We are in the face of Death." -- Holli Peet

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by tanksoldier View Post
                              The OP asked how he could find out if veteran's preference was properly applied. I don't see anything claiming he was entitled to a job.
                              The OP clearly implied that he felt he was a superior candidate than "Person B" and wondered why he did not get an interview. The fact that he is a veteran is irrelevant. My response would have been the same for a person who came on here saying the have a PhD in criminology and completed 3 Ironman triathalons last week.

                              No one is entitled to any job. Life is tough, keep applying.
                              What is Perseverance?
                              -Perseverance is commitment, hard work, patience, endurance.
                              -Perseverance is being able to bear difficulties calmly and without complaint.
                              -PERSEVERANCE IS TRYING AGAIN AND AGAIN.


                              BOP - BPA - ICE

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