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Question for 1811s or people with a lot of fed LE experience

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  • manstown
    replied
    Originally posted by Ali G View Post
    Thanks for responding. About the management, I really get the impression that up at the very top, they have the right mindset, but all the SES people below him are the problem. I could be wrong.

    They did create an investigative arm in DC, but it is still pretty small from what I understand. The new emphasis on the rails and transportation operations in general seems to have brought some attention back on the need for investigative training. The whole reason I asked is because, like you mentioned from before, there has been some talk of them finally getting the investigative training for people, BUT stopping short of CITP so we don't all do a mass exodus to everywhere else. I honestly don't see that as a threat since many of us still wouldn't be able to articulate investigative experience, except for at a GS level well below what some of these guys are making. Thus, they have trapped themselves. So, I really don't think that many people would bounce any quicker than they already are.

    You are absolutely right about money being an issue too. Apparently the CI training was approved up to some pretty high levels before it finally got squashed above the TSA level.

    Again, you were also right about the problem with pulling people off missions to send them to training. So, the talk was to send people to this "almost CITP" course right after they get hired and then backfill the rest (probably at a painfully slow rate). I guess they were trying to take a que from ya'll when ya'll went back to hiring as 0082's and automatically transitioning to 1811s. Not that we would change our series, but that we would follow your model for backfilling the training.

    I think you hit the nail on the head when you say they may be afraid of people taking off once they get this training. I don't think your agency will be that well off until those outside the agency, Congress, realize they need to start hiring management from the rank and file. Lord knows that the job, with the pay and the mission, could keep people there if they would let adults be adults. But until that happens you guys will always have a good chance of moving on to 1811 slots because the job itself is respected.

    If there was a sure fire way of promoting to 1811 like we, USMS, have now.....I can almost assure that people would stay longer to see the opportunities that might be ahead. But I don't see that because management, although it may be getting better, still lives by what Quinn instilled unfortunately. I think the agency has a ton of potential. But until Congress steps in, and I mean really steps in and starts getting rid of the trash there, the agency is just going to be a revolving door for people to build their resumes.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ali G
    replied
    Thanks Everyone

    All,

    I really appreciate ya'lls responses to this thread. It seems as though there was some confusion regarding which agency was in question (which was surely my fault for not just coming out and saying it). But, you were all still a great help. Thanks!

    Leave a comment:


  • Ali G
    replied
    Originally posted by manstown View Post
    I know that the Capitol Police sends some of their people to CITP, but that's just for one or two of their units. And they're not 1811's. I think the problem with your agency is that it would set them back a lot of money to send people through CITP. I know there was once talk of adding a CI oriented course for people going through the academy. But that would, again, cost more money and cause a stink with those that were hired on that wouldn't get that training. Another issue is that a majority of what would be investigated by your agency would probably see much resistance by the FBI seeing that both agencies focus much of their time on terrorism. I never saw why they didn't offer some sort of investigative arm to your agency given that at some point in ones career they could ultimately start an investigation. We both know that shadey things happen in your job and a good LEO would pick up on something obvious. I know one occassion where the JTTF looked further into something that I reported on a flight. A huge problem with your agency is the management. I don't think they want you guys to have the freedom to much more than the task at hand. It would be helpful though.
    Thanks for responding. About the management, I really get the impression that up at the very top, they have the right mindset, but all the SES people below him are the problem. I could be wrong.

    They did create an investigative arm in DC, but it is still pretty small from what I understand. The new emphasis on the rails and transportation operations in general seems to have brought some attention back on the need for investigative training. The whole reason I asked is because, like you mentioned from before, there has been some talk of them finally getting the investigative training for people, BUT stopping short of CITP so we don't all do a mass exodus to everywhere else. I honestly don't see that as a threat since many of us still wouldn't be able to articulate investigative experience, except for at a GS level well below what some of these guys are making. Thus, they have trapped themselves. So, I really don't think that many people would bounce any quicker than they already are.

    You are absolutely right about money being an issue too. Apparently the CI training was approved up to some pretty high levels before it finally got squashed above the TSA level.

    Again, you were also right about the problem with pulling people off missions to send them to training. So, the talk was to send people to this "almost CITP" course right after they get hired and then backfill the rest (probably at a painfully slow rate). I guess they were trying to take a que from ya'll when ya'll went back to hiring as 0082's and automatically transitioning to 1811s. Not that we would change our series, but that we would follow your model for backfilling the training.
    Last edited by Ali G; 02-22-2009, 08:22 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • GreenLine
    replied
    Even a love for outdoors wouldn't be a barrier because USFWS, NOAA, BLM, USFS, etc.. all have 1811 types.

    Also, most 1811 positions are journeyman 12/13 positions w/ LEAP. I don't know much about how Rangers are paid, but a quick look at BLM's website suggested journeyman grade is 11 w/ AUO.
    Can't speak for BLM specifically, but from my experience, 1811's in these agencies, for the most part, are 'typical' 1811's - as in they write a lot of reports and do a lot of desk work. This is not to say that they don't get to be outdoors and do some fun stuff that other 1811's might not,, and I'm sure it can vary by location and duties, but the regular criminal investigator functions are still going to be there in one form or another.

    Conversely, the rangers and uniformed personnel generally seem to spend a LOT more time outdoors and doing the things people always imagine doing when they think of working for one of these agencies to begin with.

    Then, when you factor in that nearly all of these agencies have 1811's who are only journeyman 12's, you're not talking about a huge incentive for a ranger who may already get LEAP, AUO, or some kind of OT to give up his or her job freedom to go and park their ***** behind a desk. If I were in that position, I certainly wouldn't.

    For me, there's a distinct jealousy factor at play when I work with our uniformed guys, with their GOV's as their "desks" and their "offices" outside. For many 1811's in these agencies, "patrol" is a dirty word because it's not found in the criminal investigator position description, so on the rare times I get to do it, I have to be creative and call it something else. If I had a little more Huevos and wasn't already addicted to my present salary like a crack whore with a sweet tooth (and my wife wasn't, as well), I'd probably be looking for a uniformed position, myself

    That's how the G gets you, IMO: the "fun" jobs seem to pay less, even if only slightly in some cases.
    Last edited by GreenLine; 02-22-2009, 12:24 PM.

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  • manstown
    replied
    Originally posted by GoldBadge View Post
    I have never heard of any local cop going through CITP and I seriously doubt that has ever happened. The only non-1811's I've known to go through are 1801's with investigative responsibilities.
    I know 0083's fom the Capitol Police, their Intel Unit and CID, go through and come out still 0083's. Their badges say Special Agent (I think), but that's the equivalent of a detective in a local municipality. They're still 0083's.

    Leave a comment:


  • GoldBadge
    replied
    I have never heard of any local cop going through CITP and I seriously doubt that has ever happened. The only non-1811's I've known to go through are 1801's with investigative responsibilities.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Ali G View Post
    Thanks for your response.

    As far as the difference between standard police duties and agent/detective duties, I agree. However, there are a few agencies out there that have LE academies that go far beyond a basic police academy, but still stop short of full-on CI academies such as CITP. This would be more the situation I am talking about.

    Also, I think it is a bit extreme to say "no one is ever blessed by leadership and sent to CITP." Granted, it is probably pretty rare for non-1811s to go to CITP, but I'm positive it has happened and will happen again. Hell, local cops can go to CITP if they get on the right task force and the right people push for it. I wasn't suggesting that this would be my individual path. There has been talk within my agency of this happening to all of our LEOs.
    Ali, there may be a handful as you say, but I've yet to meet a non 1811/2501/DUSM/military special agent that has been through the course. I've only been doing this line of work for four years so I'm not suggesting at all they aren't out there, just far the exception than the rule.

    I don't want to hijak the thread, but I don't see a task force sending anyone through CITP. Maybe it could happen, but who would pay for it and where is the value added?

    I don't know much about LMPT, but from this post alone it appears to be very good training. It appears the course has quite a bit of CI training already built in to it. Many (not all) federal PD officers use their experience to spring board into 1811 positions. If LM police are given the equivalent of CITP, what keeps them in their current positions? Even a love for outdoors wouldn't be a barrier because USFWS, NOAA, BLM, USFS, etc.. all have 1811 types.

    Also, most 1811 positions are journeyman 12/13 positions w/ LEAP. I don't know much about how Rangers are paid, but a quick look at BLM's website suggested journeyman grade is 11 w/ AUO.

    Last, why provide extensive CI training to police when your agency has 1811s? A previous poster mentioned the remote nature of the job and limited CIs; point well taken though I'm certain if a case was large enough in scope and required detailed CI specific work, an investigator would be sent there to cover it. If not, it appears LMPT, by design Im sure, provides enough of the basic CI skill set to its police for them to run a good investigation on their own.
    Last edited by MeLLoDraMa; 02-21-2009, 12:17 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • manstown
    replied
    I know that the Capitol Police sends some of their people to CITP, but that's just for one or two of their units. And they're not 1811's. I think the problem with your agency is that it would set them back a lot of money to send people through CITP. I know there was once talk of adding a CI oriented course for people going through the academy. But that would, again, cost more money and cause a stink with those that were hired on that wouldn't get that training. Another issue is that a majority of what would be investigated by your agency would probably see much resistance by the FBI seeing that both agencies focus much of their time on terrorism. I never saw why they didn't offer some sort of investigative arm to your agency given that at some point in ones career they could ultimately start an investigation. We both know that shadey things happen in your job and a good LEO would pick up on something obvious. I know one occassion where the JTTF looked further into something that I reported on a flight. A huge problem with your agency is the management. I don't think they want you guys to have the freedom to much more than the task at hand. It would be helpful though.

    Leave a comment:


  • GreenLine
    replied
    When a lot of the guys in my agency went to LMTP after it was revamped some years back, the agency was pleasantly surprised at the amount of stuff that was covered for them. It actually makes sense in a natural resource agency, where 1811's are few and far between and the uniformed guys end up doing a lot of the same work, anyway.

    Only downside for those uniformed guys is that it's not CITP, itself, so they don't get to use the course as a springboard to some other job. Other than that, from the guys I know, the skills are definitely there.

    Leave a comment:


  • ICEAGENT
    replied
    Originally posted by GB0610
    Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes (much more than CITP does actually) and yes, even a CCI.

    The only class LMPT had that CITP did not was the Crime Scene Investigation Course. We arrived on scene to a mock murder/shooting and collected evidence (blood, fingerprints, tire tracks, foot prints - i.e. castings, etc). We did also did our own CCI, did quite a bit of surv/under cover ops (ours was geared around a marijuana grow/buy busts).
    That's cool, I didn't know LMPT did all that.

    Leave a comment:


  • GoldBadge
    replied
    Originally posted by Ali G View Post
    Hello,

    Have any of ya'll heard about a course that makes up the difference between CITP and another academy?

    ...

    Anybody heard anything reliable about this type of course?
    Never heard anything about it either.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ali G
    replied
    Originally posted by MeLLoDraMa View Post
    I can't see a bridge course ever being a viable option because police and detective/agent work though both LE are very different. I can't imagine being able to cover the differences in three weeks. Also Ali, leadership would never decide they wanted you to be an 1811. Your work within a department may give you favorable status if you were to apply for an 1811 position w/in that same department, but no one is ever simply blessed by leadership and sent to CITP.
    Thanks for your response.

    As far as the difference between standard police duties and agent/detective duties, I agree. However, there are a few agencies out there that have LE academies that go far beyond a basic police academy, but still stop short of full-on CI academies such as CITP. This would be more the situation I am talking about.

    Also, I think it is a bit extreme to say "no one is ever blessed by leadership and sent to CITP." Granted, it is probably pretty rare for non-1811s to go to CITP, but I'm positive it has happened and will happen again. Hell, local cops can go to CITP if they get on the right task force and the right people push for it. I wasn't suggesting that this would be my individual path. There has been talk within my agency of this happening to all of our LEOs.

    Leave a comment:


  • ICEAGENT
    replied
    I haven't heard of any version of CITP other than the regular class. I never went to LMPT but I would guess that it would take more than 3 weeks to really cover everything not covered by LMPT. Does LMPT do building entries, affidavit labs, surveillance, undercover ops, managing informants, evidence processing, etc? All of those things get significant time devoted to them in CITP. The continuing case investigation exercise probably takes 3 weeks by itself to complete.

    As far as a bridge course counting towards other 1811 positions, I think that would be up to the agency that hires you. I've even heard of some people who already had CITP being required to re-attend it when hired by a new agency. Sounds like a waste of money but that's the G for you.

    As an aside, CITP is not a requirement for someone to be an 1811. DEA, FBI and Postal Inspectors are 1811 and do not go to CITP. Also, the old INS did not send 1811's to CITP. If an agency wanted to create new 1811 positions, they wouldn't necessarily have to send them to CITP, although it would probably be a good idea.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    I can't see a bridge course ever being a viable option because police and detective/agent work though both LE are very different. I can't imagine being able to cover the differences in three weeks. Also Ali, leadership would never decide they wanted you to be an 1811. Your work within a department may give you favorable status if you were to apply for an 1811 position w/in that same department, but no one is ever simply blessed by leadership and sent to CITP.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ali G
    replied
    Good looking out

    Originally posted by GB0610
    At this very moment, there is no bridge/supplement course between other training courses and CITP.

    There is talk of some Agencies who's employees attend other training courses being sent to a "potentially future developed course" that would give you the few things that you might miss in one training to bridge the gap between that training and CITP.

    There was talk in some of the Agencies that attend LMPT that they would do a 2-3 week refresher to get its employees "qualified" to attend CITP. Reason being, there are very few courses that are held in CITP that LMPT does not cover (the only two being a bit of the driving - pit and 12 extra hours of interviewing). But realize that this "bridge course" would be agency specific. So say if you worked for the USFS as an LEO, then took a potential bridge course offered by the Agency to become a SA for their Dept, your bridge course might not transfer over if you wanted to go and be an ICE SA in the future.

    Anyway, to answer your question, at this time, no Agency has a bridge course. You will need to go back for ALL of CITP.

    Hey, thanks a lot for the response. So, if an agency were to send people to the "bridge course", it would be a way getting them some decent CI training, but stopping short of allowing them to put "CITP" on a resume (thereby, allowing said agency to keep employees from jumping ship with the "CITP" course and going to another agency.) Would this be correct if one were to apply the conspiracy theory mindset?

    Leave a comment:

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